Kodak Gold 200 & Adox C41 kit - help with troubleshooting heavy colour casts

[albireo]

Adox recommends a short water rinse, and I’ve been following this practice since the time when Tetenal advised the same. I haven’t noticed any adverse effects from doing so. Why do you recommend otherwise?

View attachment 401565

You'll find an answer to this by reading the whole thread

 

[koraks]

Adox recommends a short water rinse, and I’ve been following this practice since the time when Tetenal advised the same. I haven’t noticed any adverse effects from doing so. Why do you recommend otherwise?

See post #60.
It's unclear to me why the water rinse is proposed after the development step. It really makes no sense, regardless of who came up with it.

 

[miha]

See post #60.
It's unclear to me why the water rinse is proposed after the development step. It really makes no sense, regardless of who came up with it.

Thanks. My brain is playing tricks on me. I searched for the original TT C-41 manuals, and there’s no water rinse between the developer and the blix. So it must be Adox who added that step, maybe to preserve the blix?"

 

[koraks]

The rationale is most likely indeed to preserve the blix, but it seems they misjudged the significance of developer carry-over into a plain water rinse. I hope that in a future kit they'll include an instruction to use an acetic acid stop bath and perhaps supply an additional bottle of something like 10% acetic acid, which should be weak enough to not get into any consumer safety trouble.

 

[Spektrum]

Adox recommends a short water rinse, and I’ve been following this practice since the time when Tetenal advised the same. I haven’t noticed any adverse effects from doing so. Why do you recommend otherwise?

This thread has already explained why we shouldn't rinse with water only after developing. The thread is long but it's worth reading in its entirety.

Let's not rely entirely on the ADOX instructions because their entire manual is for dummies.



My proposal for the entire process using ADOX C-TEC C41

1. Prewash (to heat the tank)
2. CD (development)
3. Stop Bath + Sulphite (30 seconds - 1 minute)
(Recipe for 1 liter: distilled water + glacial acetic acid 20 ml + sodium sulphite 10 g)
Sodium sulphite will never harm the process, but it helps to completely wash out chemicals. It's cheap and anyone who dabbles in developing should have a lot of it in their chemical cabinet
I think this should become standard.
4. Rinsing in water (running water or change the water 6 times)
5. BLEACH or BLIX
6. Clearing bath (Recipe for 1 liter: Distilled water + Sodium sulphite 10g)
7. Rinsing in water (running water or change the water several times)
8. FIXER (if you do not use BLIX)
9. Clearing bath (Recipe for 1 liter: Distilled water + Sodium sulphite 10g) Mandatory if you use a fixer based on Sodium thiosulfate)
10. Rinsing in water (running water or change the water 6 times)
11. STAB

I know that I have significantly complicated the whole process, but this complication will provide us with optimal results.

Also remember:

The most important part is the developing process.
If you screw up in this process, you can't fix it by re-developing.
Stick to the procedure, time and temperature.

If something goes wrong with bleaching or fixing, you can repeat the process again using fresh chemicals.

EDIT: If we use BLIX in point no. 5, then we skip points 6, 7, 8. I think that point 9 - Clearing bath, should also be used after BLIX.

 

[koraks]

3. Stop Bath + Sulphite (30 seconds - 1 minute)
(Recipe for 1 liter: distilled water + glacial acetic acid 20 ml + sodium sulphite 10 g)
Sodium sulphite will never harm the process, but it helps to completely wash out chemicals. It's cheap and anyone who dabbles in developing should have a lot of it in their chemical cabinet
I think this should become standard.

This is not such a great idea as it seems. 20ml glacial acetic acid per liter water corresponds roughly to a 0.3M solution. Discounting the pH influence of the sulfite for a moment, this would land us in the ballpark of pH 2.6. At this pH, a significant amount of the sulfite will decompose into sulfur dioxide. Not only is it lost to the photographic process, it'll also stink up the place pretty badly.

There are generally speaking three options at this point:
1: Leave out the sulfite. It's really not necessary. This is what I'd recommend.
2: Make a buffered stop bath (an acetate buffer could work) at a pH of around 4-4.5. This should still act satisfactorily as a stop bath, and if you add sulfite to it, this will not decompose into SO2.
3: Separate the stop bath and the sulfite rinse into two consecutive baths.

As said, option #1 is entirely adequate, easy, cheap etc. The sulfite clearing baths in the subsquent steps really don't add much to the party, either.

More stuff is not always better.

if you use a fixer based on Sodium thiosulfate)

I don't think a sodium thiosulfate fixer is a very good idea for a color negative process. Modern color negative films like those of Kodak use T-grain technology, which means the aspect ratio of the grain is not very favorable w.r.t. fixing. Just use a rapid ammonium thiosulfate fixer; there's really no compelling reason to resort to swimming pool chemistry.

I know that I have significantly complicated the whole process, but this complication will provide us with optimal results.

No! There's really no added benefit to the complexities you've added. Sorry.

 

[Spektrum]

You are right, I was wondering why my Clearing-Stop-Bath smells of sulfur.

Your experience is the oracle for me.
I am trying to standardize my C-41 development process a bit. I use ferricyanide bleach very often because I can mix it quickly and it is a very cheap alternative. Then I have to use pre-bleach acetic-sulfite stop bath and clearing baths with sulfite after bleaching.
That's why I started always using sulphite clearing baths.

I know that using sodium thiosulfate for color films is not recommended here, but I use Ole Fixer OF-1 with ammonium chloride and have not noticed any negative effects. After fixing, of course I also use clearing baths with sulfite.
Soon I will switch to Fuji fixer for C-41 process and then I will forget about sodium thiosulfite.

 

[koraks]

I use ferricyanide bleach very often because I can mix it quickly and it is a very cheap alternative. Then I have to use pre-bleach acetic-sulfite stop bath and clearing baths with sulfite after bleaching.

For the specific case of a ferricyanide bleach, I would suggest an acidic stop bath followed by a sulfite clearing bath.

Sodium thiosulfate should in principle work and if you accelerate it with ammonium salts, this will surely help. Just make sure to fix sufficiently; extend the fixing time if needed. I'm emphasizing this because insufficient fixing of CN film can show up in somewhat surprising and subtle ways as color problems. It can be a head-scratcher for sure!

 

[Spektrum]

For the specific case of a ferricyanide bleach, I would suggest an acidic stop bath followed by a sulfite clearing bath.

Ok so I'll split these baths. I based it on what PE wrote some time ago. Unfortunately I can't find that thread now.
I just copied his statement to a TXT file.


"Potassium Ferricyanide can be used as follows:

Develop
Clearing Stop (Acetic Acid + Sulfite)
wash
Ferricyanide bleach
Clearing bath (Sulfite)
wash
Fix
wash
Stabilzer or Final Rinse

The clearing baths are needed to prevent stain."

Sodium thiosulfate should in principle work and if you accelerate it with ammonium salts, this will surely help. Just make sure to fix sufficiently; extend the fixing time if needed. I'm emphasizing this because insufficient fixing of CN film can show up in somewhat surprising and subtle ways as color problems. It can be a head-scratcher for sure!

The Ole Fixer OF-1 formula contains ammonium chloride, which is a salt of hydrochloric acid and ammonia. I fix the film for no less than 6 minutes but I don't want to overdo it because Ole wrote:
"I don't use this fix with POP or lith prints. Like all rapid fixes it has a very slight bleaching effect in the highlights, especially with warm tones."

I'm concerned about the highlights on my negative.

 

[pentaxuser]

I hope that in a future kit they'll include an instruction to use an acetic acid stop bath and perhaps supply an additional bottle of something like 10% acetic acid, which should be weak enough to not get into any consumer safety trouble.

Kodak's acid stop bath is still for sale in the U.K. and is much higher than 10%. OK we are not it the EU but on that basis I'd be surprised if 10% is any kind of a problem in the EU

pentaxuser

 

[Spektrum]

Regular food vinegar sold in stores in Poland, called spirit vinegar because it is made from spirit, has a concentration of 10-12% and is ridiculously cheap. I think it is not the concentration of acid that is the problem, but the additional bottle with the chemical.

 

[koraks]

OK we are not it the EU but on that basis I'd be surprised if 10% is any kind of a problem in the EU

I'm not sure at this point what concentration acetic acid private individuals can legally purchase in various countries. Given the frequent use for particularly nasty purposes (cases in the UK come to mind specifically), I'd not be surprised if there are already restrictions in effect. I've not checked diligently however. 10% I would not expect to be a problem, but e.g. 'glacial' acetic acid might very well be. Moreover, I'd be very, very hesitant to ship out high concentrations of any acid as part of a film development kit to private consumers.

 

[farpointer]

2: Make a buffered stop bath (an acetate buffer could work) at a pH of around 4-4.5. This should still act satisfactorily as a stop bath, and if you add sulfite to it, this will not decompose into SO2.
3: Separate the stop bath and the sulfite rinse into two consecutive baths.

I've been planning to use Sprint Block Stop Bath, which I think is a buffered bath (water, acetic acid, and sodium acetate) for my C-41 runs.

Would Kodak HCA count as a useful sulfite rinse for color materials?

 

[Rudeofus]

See post #60.
It's unclear to me why the water rinse is proposed after the development step. It really makes no sense, regardless of who came up with it.

The water rinse after CD makes a lot of sense, if you then go into a BLIX. Note, that Kodak never recommended a BLIX.

BLIX is neutral, and CD-4 will happily oxidize with the BLIX and then form a dye. There were many reports here on photrio about "yellow blotches in blue sky on C-41 negatives", and it was most visible on medium format negatives.

The "Kodak&Fuji" way is to use an acidic bleach, which avoids the issue. If we want to use BLIX, then a stop&sulfite bath as described by @Spektrum is highly recommended.

 

[koraks]

The water rinse after CD makes a lot of sense, if you then go into a BLIX. Note, that Kodak never recommended a BLIX.

It makes sense from the perspective of the blix, but looking from the other end of the process, it doesn't make so much sense to go from CD directly into a water bath.

If we want to use BLIX, then a stop&sulfite bath as described by @Spektrum is highly recommended.

I contest that; see my earlier reply as well as his confirmation of a sulfur dioxide smell. The proper way IMO would be stop followed by sulfite rinse.

 

[Rudeofus]

It makes sense from the perspective of the blix, but looking from the other end of the process, it doesn't make so much sense to go from CD directly into a water bath.

E-6 goes from FD to water bath and then again from CD to water bath.

I contest that; see my earlier reply as well as his confirmation of a sulfur dioxide smell. The proper way IMO would be stop followed by sulfite rinse.

You can make a stop bath at pH 5.5 from Sodium Sulfite and Acetic Acid, which would stop and still doesn't smell to high heaven. Yes, you could separate the stop and the clearing step, but sooner or later you'd have a seven bath process taking 45+ minutes per full run without final wash.


Many years ago I talked to an analog photo dealer about offering a BLIX conversion kit. His opinion: the only thing his typical customers worry about is "why do we have to mix 3 bottles plus water to make C-41 CD, that's sooooo complicated!". Yes, there are people who don't worry about "mixing three bottles plus water", but a sizeable number of these home brew now, meaning: we're really bad customers for these kit chem sellers. They haven't sold a kit to me in over a decade.

For this reason no color dev kit will ever ship with a stop bath or a clearing bath, and it seems the trend towards separate bleach&fix from the last few years has fizzled out.

 

[albireo]

For this reason no color dev kit will ever ship with a stop bath or a clearing bath, and it seems the trend towards separate bleach&fix from the last few years has fizzled out.

How so? The Bellini kit is very much available.

 

[brbo]

E-6 goes from FD to water bath and then again from CD to water bath.

I would guess that FD normally being in the 6-7min bracket and CD basically to completion in E-6 would mean that immediate stop is way less important than in the process where development time is much much shorter. Thus plain water stop/wash in E-6 is sufficient.

 

[Rudeofus]

How so? The Bellini kit is very much available.

Looking at BH I see the following search results for "C-41 kit" under the category "color chemistry":

Cinestill cs41: BLIX kit
Arista C-41 liquid kit: BLIX kit
Flic Film 3 bath C-41 kit: bleach & fixer (no stop bath, recommends water wash)
Tetenal C-41 press kit: BLIX kit
Jobo C-41 kit: bleach & fixer
Flic Film home processing C-41 kit: bleach&fixer plus stop bath
Rollei C-41: BLIX kit
Rollei Fuji Hunt: bleach&fixer
FPP starter kit: bleach&fixer

So yes, agreed, there are both types available, but I was under the impression, that new BLIX kits made more noise lately.

 

[Spektrum]

I contest that; see my earlier reply as well as his confirmation of a sulfur dioxide smell. The proper way IMO would be stop followed by sulfite rinse.

Dear @koraks
I made a mistake that I later repeated with my C-41 process. In reality, there should have been much less glacial acetic acid. I used the formula that someone here on the forum recommended.
But I should have used 2% glacial acetic acid + 10 grams/liter sodium sulphite, not 20% glacial acetic acid. Here is what the formula looks like, I can't find this statement anywhere on the forum:

"If you are using ferrocyanide bleach, a stop/clean bath is required after the developer. I use a 2-minute stop bath in 2% acetic acid with 10 grams/liter sodium sulphite, followed by a 2-minute wash under running water. This provides good protection for the ferrocyanide bleach from oxidation by the developer, which would result in ugly brown stains on the negatives."