Kodak Files for Bankruptcy Protection 1/18/2012

Pride 2025

A
Pride 2025

  • 0
  • 0
  • 0
Tybee Island

D
Tybee Island

  • 0
  • 0
  • 22
LIBERATION

A
LIBERATION

  • 4
  • 2
  • 70

Forum statistics

Threads
198,330
Messages
2,773,160
Members
99,595
Latest member
s Lam
Recent bookmarks
0
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
4,942
Location
Monroe, WA, USA
Format
Multi Format
Why Are Digital Cameras Disappearing?
By Jared Spurbeck, via Yahoo! Contributor Network, February 1, 2012

"So, what are the manufacturers doing?"

"Canon is replacing its CEO..."


Ken
 

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
The "Right To Work" legislation is passing in more and more states indicating that there is some reluctance to join unions. And, our state budgets and federal budgets are overwhelmed with entitlements imposed by civil service unions. Therefore we have a high wage base and a high entitlement burden. This is both good and bad. The good sets our standard of living and protects us in our old age, but the bad forces jobs overseas.

OTOH, another "bad" is that civil service entitlements begin after much shorter service than those in industry thus allowing long payments and double dipping.

PE
 

MaximusM3

Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
754
Location
NY
Format
35mm RF
Why Are Digital Cameras Disappearing?
By Jared Spurbeck, via Yahoo! Contributor Network, February 1, 2012

"So, what are the manufacturers doing?"

"Canon is replacing its CEO..."


Ken

Yep...seems like a very natural progression. Just like the bread and butter for Kodak (and others) was never the pro shooter, it is very easy to see where this is going. The driving force is the social network generation, and they are using iPhones or Android. The camera, as a standalone tool, will eventually be relegated to the realm of harder core enthusiasts, leaving manufacturers in a bind. After all, this is a closed end deal. We all know that they can't keep the suckers (consumers) coming for more every 18-24 months with some silly new features or pixel improvements. There is no re-inventing the wheel, and ease of use and portability, with the ability to instantly post your shots on a variety of web sites, almost instantly, will win. Apple wins..Kodak (well maybe not Kodak because we've already seen how shifting winds have affected them), Nikon, Pentax, Fuji..they will need to re-think their strategies, big time, for even a mere chance of survival. This sounds a bit pessimistic, but it's how I see the reality of things..In the meantime, I'll keep on shooting my film until the freezer is empty :smile:
 

DREW WILEY

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2011
Messages
13,852
Format
8x10 Format
Jobs generally go overseas for a completely different reason, and "right to work" can become a ploy
to turn high paying jobs into sweatshops, with the entire community going into a nosedive. Just follow the events at the Snapple plant. Ridiculous unsustainable entitlements obviously need to be
addressed as demographic changes occur, and less folks can pay into the system; but every mfg I've
personally dealt with that "outsourced" did it due to sheer greed at the top. The bait and switch act
bascially tanks the corporation in a few years, like slash n' burn agriculture - very fast response on
Wall St and corporate bonuses, but after awhile, nothing will grow there again. Steel was sold out
too. I've been in meetings with the folks who pulled off that stunt - just a handful of them control
the whole market - and now it costs way more to ship it around the world and back than if it had
been made here all along.
 

CGW

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
2,896
Format
Medium Format
The "Right To Work" legislation is passing in more and more states indicating that there is some reluctance to join unions. And, our state budgets and federal budgets are overwhelmed with entitlements imposed by civil service unions. Therefore we have a high wage base and a high entitlement burden. This is both good and bad. The good sets our standard of living and protects us in our old age, but the bad forces jobs overseas.

OTOH, another "bad" is that civil service entitlements begin after much shorter service than those in industry thus allowing long payments and double dipping.

PE

Did you also do labour relations/labour economics at EK?

Funny how what were once fought for as "benefits" as now dissed as "entitlements."

I'm waiting for "scab-herding" to make a comeback, too.
 

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Well, actually, Kodak paid very very generous benefits to everyone and had one of the best labor relations organization in industry. They had few complaints and maintained this system until after I retired. So, lack of unions does not automatically lead to sweatshops and the presence of unions does not solve all problems. Everyone was kept aware of their "benefits" throughout their careers. This included a wage dividend for each employee in which the WD was a percentage of the stock dividend multiplied by a percentage of their base wage. It could be taken as cash or placed into a separate retirement fund (SIP) for withdrawal upon retirement and it was not taxable.

Now, in terms of "entitlements" locally, we have civil service employees that can retire after 20 - 30 years service with nearly full pay and total health care benefits for life. If that is not an entitlement, IDK what is, as it is fully paid by the taxpayer. NYS is now fighting out this problem regarding police, firemen and other civil service including teachers.

The difference between a "benefit" and an "entitlement" is very slippery. I know that in this context it is difficult to differentiate. I should clarify that to me a benefit is earned by joint contribution over a reasonable employment and kicks in upon retirement but is regulated in the US by law as to age and what can be collected. An entitlement is a lifetime benefit that is paid over a persons lifetime and can be given after rather short terms of employment such as 20 years or so, and which has often received no funds from the employee. Thus a civil service clerk might work from age 21 to 41 and "retire" to another profession such as a secretary in a law office. That person would be entitled to all "benefits" or "entitlements" from the first job and a salary from the second job. Very often, since they turn down benefits from the new job, they beat out others who are not so lucky and need a job with benefits. This is a sad situation when it takes place.

PE
 

DREW WILEY

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2011
Messages
13,852
Format
8x10 Format
These are complex issues which vary with specific circumstances, and it's counterproductive to dumb it all down with stereotypes like a campaign diatribe does. Kodak's circumstances are somewhat different because any root
of such issues in its own case must be viewed retrospectively, way back to when circumstances were quite a bit
different from now. Currently, however, one should never underestimate the degree to which the Asian mfg model has exported sheer corruption as well as products. I'm nearing retirement, but if I wanted to, I could still go to work for some natl corp and earn ten times what I do now. Most people has no idea how rotten things have become and how stacked the deck is. There were four well publicized convictions in my profession last year, and even though the rogue players are a small minority of we professional buyers, they can individually
easily tank a major US corp. I suspect these gambler types do it as much for the adrenaline rush as for the money. Twelve years in the chicken coop and maybe the IRS going after them for tax evasion aren't exactly an
incentive, but the odds of getting caught are small. Way worse are the legal ways to bankrupt your own corporation and walk away with retirement funds etc. I know of one character who did this twelve times in a row
(legally). And in the last few years I've dealt with several large US mfg corps over a hundred years old who had
survived all kinds of downturns, but became ruined within months by smartass CEO's. Same scenario every time
- pink slip everyone with experience, outsource, burn down the barn behind you, run with your golden parachute
and then go ruin another company. Right now there are massive tax incentives to offshore and violate US
labor laws. And I don't think congress is going to help at all - too many of them are getting a piece of the
action.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
7,530
Location
San Clemente, California
Format
Multi Format
The "Right To Work" legislation is passing in more and more states indicating that there is some reluctance to join unions...
The passage of "right to work for less" legislation in states is a product of collaboration between the legislators and the corporations that own them. Take a look at the reaction in Wisconsin and Indiana to union-stripping laws, including successfully overturning one of them so far (along with recalling a number of the legislators who voted for it) and ongoing actions with the goal of continuing to reverse these things. There's no reluctance to join or for others to support a right to join unions.

...And, our state budgets and federal budgets are overwhelmed with entitlements imposed by civil service unions. Therefore we have a high wage base and a high entitlement burden. This is both good and bad. The good sets our standard of living and protects us in our old age, but the bad forces jobs overseas...
The budgets are overwhelmed by intentional revenue reductions, not "entitlements." This has been a deliberate, systematic series of actions over the last three decades by those who would 'starve government so it can be eliminated.' Or as close to eliminated as possible. Except for those aspects of it they wish to rob for themselves.

...another "bad" is that civil service entitlements begin after much shorter service than those in industry thus allowing long payments and double dipping...
In general, excepting cases of criminal conduct, the ability of civil servants to retire after fewer years than private sector jobs typically require is limited to police and fire personnel. The reasoning behind what might seem like an overly generous arrangement is that those two jobs make extreme demands on the health of those doing them, thus justifying shorter careers. The retirement benefits (dollar payments, medical coverage, etc.) granted retirees, regardless of whether their employment agreements / union contracts required any contributions on their part, are deferred compensation. Referring to them as "entitlements" connotes "welfare" or "something for nothing." Nothing could be further from the truth. Retirement benefits are earned and owed to the retirees.

If someone retires from a public employment position, collects the retirement benefits they are owed as a result, then takes another job that offers benefits of any kind, they're not "double dipping." They're earning additional compensation for additional work.

...in terms of "entitlements" locally, we have civil service employees that can retire after 20 - 30 years service with nearly full pay and total health care benefits for life. If that is not an entitlement, IDK what is, as it is fully paid by the taxpayer. NYS is now fighting out this problem regarding police, firemen and other civil service including teachers...
I already addressed police and fire positions, but teachers are another matter. When we left NY State in 1978, my wife withdrew her NYS Teachers' Retirement System funds, so I haven't kept up with the latest specifics there, but doubt it's more generous than other states' systems, particularly California's, with which I am intimately familiar. Typical teachers' retirement systems offer nothing even approximating full pay after 20 years service. After 34 years here, my wife still hasn't come close to a benefit of that magnitude. Also, medical coverage is a matter addressed (if at all) by each individual school district - teacher union contract, not a vested benefit administered by the state system. If and when offered, it can end at any time, i.e. should it be negotiated away in the next contract.

...to me a benefit is earned by joint contribution over a reasonable employment and kicks in upon retirement but is regulated in the US by law as to age and what can be collected. An entitlement is a lifetime benefit that is paid over a persons lifetime and can be given after rather short terms of employment such as 20 years or so, and which has often received no funds from the employee...
Those are terms and "definitions" used by politicians to stir up resentment in support of those who "own" the politicians. In the private sector, a "vested benefit" is one resulting from an employment relationship that is addressed by ERISA and covered by the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation. Public sector employees are subject to similar arrangements, covered in statues of the states. The duration of employment required to earn vested benefits is explicitly spelled out in their associated plans, which are made formal and provided to employees. "Entitlement" has no meaning in this arena. Things that aren't vested benefits can be modified or terminated at any time. There is no "entitlement" associated with them.

...Thus a civil service clerk might work from age 21 to 41 and "retire" to another profession such as a secretary in a law office. That person would be entitled to all "benefits" or "entitlements" from the first job and a salary from the second job. Very often, since they turn down benefits from the new job, they beat out others who are not so lucky and need a job with benefits...
Again, retirement of a civil service "clerk" at age 41 after 20 years of service is not a typical situation in the US. It is possible for many such employees to leave with a vested retirement benefit, but it would be a rather small dollar amount (especially if requested to begin at age 41, should that even be possible) and usually not include any medical benefits until older. I find it difficult to accept that a local or state government has offered such a generous package of vested benefits. If they're not vested, more rational heads can rescind or delay qualification for portions that exceed reasonableness, namely medical coverage starting before age 55.

The real solution to medical coverage impacts on employment is what should have been enacted in 2010 rather than the half-measure we got. A tax-funded single-payer system, covering everyone and taking out private insurance companies with their profit motive, is long overdue. In my opinion. :smile:

Most baffling of all in this subject area are those who rail against unionized workers (public or private) for what the railers believe are excessively generous compensation, regardless of what form that compensation takes. Why would those who feel downtrodden (not addressed to you, Ron) argue in favor of bringing everyone else down to their level rather than forcing their government to work in their favor so they can rise to the level of those they rail against? :D
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DREW WILEY

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2011
Messages
13,852
Format
8x10 Format
What's interesting is how the two sides can work together, Sal. For example, my own pension fund is
with the industry mgt plan, but I have opted for the union health plan. It's a win/win no-confrontational solution to a traditional face-off. Simply put, owners and mgt were offered participation in union clout for their own personal health benefits, and in turn, the union gets a favor.
But when you've got folks out there who are trying to advance personal political careers by inflaming wedge issues, it's pretty hard to solve problems. But I have no interest in beating up on
Ron. He was way more knowledge of Kodak's history than I ever will.
 

ME Super

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2011
Messages
1,479
Location
Central Illinois, USA
Format
Multi Format
Civil Service vs. Private Sector

At my last employer, the pay was good, the benefits were okay, and the stress level was very high. We were doing work for the State of Illinois under a contract, and while I had been there long enough to earn 4 weeks of vacation/year (after 5 years you got 4 weeks of vacation per year, I had been there 7 years), getting to use any of it was like pulling hen's teeth. My last two months there I managed to get a week off because I got a doctor's note. That's what it took my last year there in order to get time off. When I left, the company had to pay me for 7 weeks 4 days of vacation time.

I now work for a State University (my Alma Mater, in fact). My job classification is "Civil Service." I had to work 6 months as temporary help with no benefits before they hired me on permanently. Then there was a 6 month probation period. The pay is not as good as in the private sector, but the benefits are awesome. I've been there almost 5 years and have accumulated 6+ weeks of unused vacation time (I earn 5 weeks a year). My boss is awesome, stress levels are much lower, and my health is improved because of it. Not to mention my productivity is up because I'm not under so much stress. So the difference in pay is like paying to have these other things. I could easily make 10-15k more per year in the private sector, but I have enough and am happy where I am. Money in the here and now isn't everything (but it does help :smile:)

In order to earn my maximum retirement benefit, I have to work 36 years for the university, not 20 like some are saying. That will put me at around 73 when I retire. I will probably retire before then and just have to learn to live with the lower benefits as I really don't want to work until I'm 73. Like Sal said, retirement benefits are like deferred compensation, but I also contribute 8% of my pay to the retirement fund. I'm sure the Kodak guys like Ron also had to pay something into their retirement fund.

Regards,
ME Super
 

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Sal;

It seems that we disagree on most things except for the police and firemen issues.

Retirement with benefits has become a big issue in NYS and NYC with commercials on TV paid by the NY Civil Service Union bucking comments by the Governor and etc. Basically, both of our arguments are too simplistic considering the complexity of the situation just here in NYS not to mention other states.

Teachers are underpaid, but they do get to retire earlier. Civil service people do get huge benefits etc.. So do college admin people and others. Overhead in schools is eating up our budget. When I went to school, there was a guidance councilor for the entire building of several hundred students and one Principal and Vice Principal. Today, there are one each for each grade level. Our local budget is hugely "bankrupt" and our town wants to cut teachers and make classes larger. Our neighbor just retired from being a school administrator and she is much less than 65 (see below)!

In CA, you can retire as early as age 50 from your teaching job! http://www.calstrs.com/Members/Defined Benefit Program/retbenes.aspx

This is somewhat above the requirement I stated as a broad "rule" but is below what Sal has mentioned it seems to me upon reading it and your note Sal. It varies from state to state and town to town within states. Then there are US government rules to consider as well.

In any event, our system is breaking down overall and going broke. CA itself is almost bankrupt - kind of like Kodak, right? You keep changing politicians and getting nowhere. Maybe that example is why Perez has not been replaced. The board saw that it didn't work for CA.

So, we all contribute something to our retirement plans. But when the company goes belly up, we lose all or part of what was there. Except government employees.

Now, Sal, don't let this get lost in the chaff. If a person gets medical benefits as a retiree and moves on to a new job, a real possibility hereabouts, well, then they can bump a person in need of a job who wants benefits. The hiring company sees this as a real benefit to them, a real cost savings, as they do not have to pay out as much to the one as compared to the other.

PE
 

DREW WILEY

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2011
Messages
13,852
Format
8x10 Format
Here again you take the liberty of using our CA state situation as an example of what's wrong, but based on a completely incorrect premise, Ron. Not long ago we had a huge budget surplus, but virtually every cent
of it was literally stolen by an energy blackmail scheme now universally
condemned as illegal. Something like 50 billion disappeared that way, and
is never coming back. A handful of Enron cronies went to jail, but the big
players never were indicted. Then our state pension fund was severely
crippled by an illegal mutual fund fraud scheme. Meanwhile, new funds are not coming in because of the housing mortgage crisis, which involved
illegal activities all along and even rigged elections in the epicenter of all
that. A handful of local politicians went to prison, along with one sherriff
and his deputies, but that's just a tiny tip of the iceberg. So you can understand what I feel when folks demand less govt involvement - it's like someone asking the bank guard to take a day off - I'd want to know if their names are Bonnie & Clyde! But around here all you've got to do is
compare partially unionized vs wholly non-unioned neighborhoods. The
former instance is doing pretty damn good, while the latter looks like the
Great Depression.
 

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Drew;

Seems that the people in CA are hyper sensitive. My post was about teachers and civil servants in NYS and some comments about CA. I did make a comment about CA politicians but if you read it without anger, you will see that it was tongue in cheek.

Kodak was non-unionized and the city looked damned good!!!!!! Looks depends on a lot.

PE
 

DREW WILEY

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2011
Messages
13,852
Format
8x10 Format
Times have changed Ron. I know of several large corp around here making record profits, who not long ago were considered to be exceptionally good places to work, but now are using the recession as a pretext to cut benefits, lay off workers, or demand dramatically longer hours without compensation. It's a national trend. The tech industries might or might not fall into this category, depending on the specifics. Public sector unions are a mixed bag. The most unusual might be our city
police union contract. They can retire with 100% pay after 25 yrs of service, but cannot receive any health benefits until having been retired for six years. Since most local cops retire around age 50, the logic is that
very few will live to be 56, since premature heart attacks from career stress will kill off most of them. At least that's a valid statistic. But Calif is
a very bad place for teachers right now. Schools have been slammed esp
hard with budget cuts.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
7,530
Location
San Clemente, California
Format
Multi Format
...Teachers are underpaid, but they do get to retire earlier...Overhead in schools is eating up our budget. When I went to school, there was a guidance councilor for the entire building of several hundred students and one Principal and Vice Principal. Today, there are one each for each grade level. Our local budget is hugely "bankrupt" and our town wants to cut teachers and make classes larger. Our neighbor just retired from being a school administrator and she is much less than 65 (see below)!

In CA, you can retire as early as age 50 from your teaching job! http://www.calstrs.com/Members/Defined Benefit Program/retbenes.aspx

This is somewhat above the requirement I stated as a broad "rule" but is below what Sal has mentioned it seems to me upon reading it and your note Sal. It varies from state to state and town to town within states...
The link you included explains that teachers who are age 50 and have 30 years of service can retire. First, let's be clear; most public school teachers (at least in this state) are women. Very few of them start teaching at age 20 (finished college and student teaching early?) and work as teachers for 30 years straight. Most take leaves of absence to raise one or more children of their own. Therefore, the number of California teachers qualified to retire at age 50 is very small. Anyone qualifying for that option, if they do receive retiree medical benefits, usually get those for a limited number of years, not even until age 65. Average age at retirement is 61.8 years. Typically, any retiree medical benefits end at age 65.

I don't know what local school district you're describing, but it doesn't sound like the public high school I attended in New York in the late 1960s. We had two guidance councilors, one Principal and one Assistant Principal for a building of several thousand students. In my wife's elementary school here, as many as 1,400 students have been present. There's no longer an Assistant Principal. The Principal is part time; she has to run two schools.

...In any event, our system is breaking down overall and going broke. CA itself is almost bankrupt - kind of like Kodak, right?...
I see no parallels between California's fiscal condition and Kodak's. California started its long, painful slide from progressive leadership to today's pitiful situation as a result of Proposition 13 in 1978, the same year I arrived here from New York. It was the beginning of the rebellion against taxes. It resulted not only in starving public education by severely limiting property taxes, but also imposed a requirement for legislature- or voter initiative-levied tax increases and new taxes to be approved by 2/3 votes. In other words, it started the process of revenue starvation so beloved by those who want to mostly eliminate government. It was elegant, since it ensured a continuous degradation of civics understanding by generations who would be "educated" by the gutted system. Generations who know the price of all things ("Cut my taxes") and the value of none (a real education). Sadly, like many things that began here, it spread across the country to infect other states and the federal government.

...So, we all contribute something to our retirement plans. But when the company goes belly up, we lose all or part of what was there. Except government employees...
We don't all contribute to our retirement plans. In the private sector, only those who participate in "defined contribution" plans contribute. Those working under "defined benefit" plans make no contributions. Also, if a corporation, which pays fees to the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation for defined contribution plans, fails to adequately fund its plan and, as part of a bankruptcy, causes the plan to terminate, not everyone loses all or part of their vested benefit. Whether a monthly benefit is forfeited or reduced depends on the retiree's age when a plan is terminated (or bankruptcy filed). Generally, those who retired earliest and started with the highest monthly dollar amount lose most. In most cases, someone in the private sector who retired at the California teachers' average age of 61.8 with comparable monthly benefits would lose very little, if anything. Again, medical coverage, both in the public and private sectors, is typically not a vested benefit and is subject to termination at any time, limited only by contracts.

...don't let this get lost in the chaff. If a person gets medical benefits as a retiree and moves on to a new job, a real possibility hereabouts, well, then they can bump a person in need of a job who wants benefits. The hiring company sees this as a real benefit to them, a real cost savings, as they do not have to pay out as much to the one as compared to the other...
I'm not sure whether it's legal under law for a hiring entity to consider that factor during the interview and offer stages, but let's assume that it is. The key questions are: what retirees are taking what kind of jobs? Are they police and firefighters moving to a completely different field after short careers? If so, their medical benefits are deferred compensation and an asset they offer to potential employers like any other aspect of themselves.

I think you've made a great case for national single-payer medical coverage. Let's attack the root cause of this employment issue rather than blaming retirees who have medical coverage.
 

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Sal, under those laws we both noted, my wife started teaching at 21 and could have retired at 51. Neat! I could have used that. She could not stand the stress and quit. She became a private secretary. So...... it begs the issue.

You can pick my arguments apart all you wish, but it does not change the fact that CA is broke, Kodak is Broke, the system is broke and the list goes on and on. I don't care to pick anyone apart in detail as the situation is too diffuse to do that. Things are broken, and until everyone quits equivocating, it will remain broken until people step up to the plate and sy sy!

Things are broken. They are broken different ways in different states. One statement of fact cannot express the problems. But, we must fix the generic problem.

Have fun with this one.

PE
 

Tim Gray

Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
1,882
Location
OH
Format
35mm
It's nice to hear you older guys talk about this. About half of my friends don't have any retirement or health benefits. I'm one of the lucky ones - I got retirement benefits at the age of 29. The way things are going, I'll probably never get to retire. Not because people won't be allowed to, but cancer will probably get me before I turn 73 or whatever the SS age limit will be raised to in 30-40 years.
 

Klainmeister

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Messages
1,504
Location
Santa Fe, NM
Format
Medium Format
Retirement....yea, that was something my parents spoke of in whispers. Say goodbye to that.

It's ok, I expect that at some point people will realize that each other is not the enemy.
 

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Tim;

Thanks, you kinda make my point.

One of my friends who left EK said that he needed $6 - 8M to retire at 65

PE
 

Photo Engineer

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
29,018
Location
Rochester, NY
Format
Multi Format
Glenn was a lont younger than I was. Best of luck.

The fact that you have doubts is the best indicator of a broken system. I doubt if I need say more.

PE
 

ciocc

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
89
Format
35mm
...

Things are broken. ...

PE

They're not broken for the guy I met out on the golf course here in CA. He retired from the Corrections Department at age 50 with a 125,000/year pension. He's now working as a consultant. Certainly not typical of CA government employees to be sure, as the vast majority of CA state employees won't retire at that age and with nowhere near that pension. But guys like this one get all the attention in the media when articles are written about the pension system in CA needing to be reformed.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom