Kodak Endura Premier compared to Fuji Crystal Archive II

[xtol121]

For the past 3 years I have been buying Fuji CAII paper rolls and chopping them down for RA-4 printing in my darkroom. It's been fine, but I've never really felt satisfied - mottled and weak black point, thin paper, weak contrast, etc. But it was the only paper that was available so I kept at it. Until today! A few months ago I saw that Kodak Endura Premier was available via Unique Photo so I ordered a roll. Today I was running low on CAII so I chopped of a few sheets of Endura Premier and gave it a go. Immediately I was blown away by the increased contrast, cleaner black point, and overall quality improvement compared to the CAII I had been working with.

Here's a look at all 3 up on inspection board. They're all mostly dried off, at least enough to where the blue veiling is dried down and the paper has visible Dmax. This is from a Fuji Pro 400H negative shot with a Fuji Klasse S. I'm going to miss that film, I wish I shot more of it while it was around. The prints were made with an LPL 4500II, Nikkor 105mm lens, and processed with fresh Fuji RA-4 chemistry in my Durst RCP 20.

Top Left - Kodak Endura Premier Lustre. Top Right - Fuji Crystal Archive II with the same exact enlarger settings as the Kodak print. Bottom Left - Fuji Crystal Archive II balanced to match the Kodak print.

The paper before processing is tan vs Fuji's blue. The paper base after processing is a little bit warmer than Fuji, which is not a problem for me as I still think the highlights print and feel neutral. I don't have the filtration settings on hand, but they were around 30-50cc points different. Fuji was about a stop faster than the Kodak.

Overall I am seriously impressed and will be buying more in the future. I expect this will become my main RA-4 paper though I will keep a box of CAII around for very contrasty scenes. Anyone else have any experiences with these 2 papers in recent years?

 

[mshchem]

Fuji is all that's left.

 

[brbo]

I expect this will become my main RA-4 paper though I will keep a box of CAII around for very contrasty scenes. Anyone else have any experiences with these 2 papers in recent years?

It won't become your main RA-4 paper as it is not produced anymore. Look for Fuji DPII or Maxima to get close to Endura.

 

[koraks]

The paper before processing is tan vs Fuji's blue.

That's odd. Last time I used Endura it was pink.

Anyway, you're lucky to have found a roll of Endura that's not yet fogged to oblivion. It's not been made anymore for quite some time. All you'll find on the market is old stock, expired by now, most of it fogged beyond usability.

If you want more saturation and contrast than plain Fuji crystal Archive gives, use DPII or Maxima. If you're in the US, contact your Fuji representative and ask where to get these papers; DPII is sold under a different name there.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I like the saturated colors.:Top Left - Kodak Endura Premier Lustre.

Washed out colors. Blah.: Top Right - Fuji Crystal Archive II .

Second best, needs a little more pop: Bottom Left - Fuji Crystal Archive II

 

[halfaman]

Standard Fuji CAII is a very bad paper, the only good thing is the price. My condolencies if it is the only thing you can use. I have an opened box 100 sheets of 18x24 cm untouched since many years, it has around 97 sheets left.

 

[xtol121]

Interesting everyone is saying the paper hasn't been made in forever considering mine has a 2024 expiration date. I'll see if the sticker I grabbed has any additional info, but I tossed the packaging when I loaded the paper into my magazine. In any event I'll take whatever this paper is over the CAII paper any day

 

[pentaxuser]

xtol121, it would seem that either you have been incredibly lucky or that "luck" combined with a 2024 expiry date may need further clarification such as that which Unique Photo may be able to provide

What may be not be in contention or not so far at least based on the posts so far is that the Kodak paper looks to have made a better print

pentaxuser

 

[brbo]

Rolls of Endura with 2023 and 2024 exp. dates (but nothing past that) surfaced some months ago.

There were potential concerns raised about the stability of this paper if those were in fact coated by Lucky and not the last stock of Carestream coated Endura. In any way, it might not be the best paper to get hooked on.

And, yes, Endura is much better than CAII unless you need a low(er) contrast and saturation paper. So is Fuji DPII and Maxima. There were comparisons posted on Photrio before...

 

[xtol121]

@brbo I'm confused. In post #3 you said the paper was not produced anymore. Now in post #9 you say the paper does exist, but it's of unknown origin? Which is it?

 

[brbo]

Nobody said Endura never existed. I said Kodak Endura (as we knew it) is not produced anymore.

And nobody is saying you shouldn't be delighted by the results. I would still check the next roll to see where it was manufactured. If it's China, you might get faster deterioration...

 

[xtol121]

It won't become your main RA-4 paper as it is not produced anymore.

...

in any event I think it's safe to say that the paper is either in production currently, or was very recently in production. Though this thread was never meant to be about paper production, I brought this experience to this forums attention to highlight the difference in paper performance as it's my first time having the option to print on anything but CAII

 

[miha]

I brought this experience to this forums attention to highlight the difference in paper performance as it's my first time having the option to print on anything but CAII

I'm sure we all apprecite it. And those in the know also shared additional info about the Endura paper which is fine too.

 

[koraks]

I think it's safe to say that the paper is either in production currently, or was very recently in production

The factory shut down permanently something like 6 months ago. Prior to that, it appears the last production happened around Sep 2023. To the best of my knowledge no Chinese quasi-Endura is being made by Lucky, who do produce papers under Kodak brand presently. Even if they start selling something branded as "Endura", it's doubtful the paper would perform anything like real Endura would, since Lucky's current "Kodak" paper appears to perform identically to their own brand paper. So it seems they only use the brand, not the formulas. I don't think real Endura was ever coated in any other facilities than the long defunct British and the more recently closed US (ex-) Kodak plants.

the difference in paper performance

Yes, there's a considerable difference. If you can get some DPII or Maxima, you'll notice that these also perform very differently (most would say "better") than plain CA. Plain Crystal Archive is an economy paper that's made to suit the needs of the mass printing market and aimed to get OK quality at the absolute bottom price per square meter, with digital imaging. I don't really like it for optical enlargement due to its weak blacks and low saturation. Prints always look rather anemic on this paper.

 

[xtol121]

@koraks that’s interesting to note the factory closing in 2023. Odd that it would have been unavailable for years (I am uninformed of the history of Endura and only really care about it’s current existence) and then pop up for a year or so and then disappear again. In any event I have an email in with someone I know at Kodak Moments asking for clarification. I also agree completely with your description of Crystal Archive II. After I run through this Endura paper I will try to place an order for DPII which has been unavailable for me in the US for at least the last 3 years.

I like to keep all of my darkroom practices simple and don’t enjoy testing different films, papers, developers etc. CAII is nice just for the fact that it is readily available. As someone who likes to learn materials and shoot with their qualities in mind it is hard to get excited about other materials that may or may not be available in the future. Seeing Endura readily available with fresh expiration dates has me excited and I do hope it continues to be available. I already know I can’t count on DPII to be available for me, but maybe that will change in the future.

But I really did not want this thread to devolve into a product availability post. There are other recent threads of that nature that I find tiresome. Especially threads full of conjecture without facts… I regret even posting at all, because all I really wanted to express was “wow, Fuji crystal archive II has poor performance (for me and my work) and I’m thankful to have another material to print to”.

 

[pentaxuser]

The factory shut down permanently something like 6 months ago. Prior to that, it appears the last production happened around Sep 2023.

So he may have got paper that is as little as one year old and it would seem he has no reason to be concerned that it is Chinese paper of dubious quality

If it is genuine Endura of U.S. origin then the real question is or would be if it were I , is what was the shelf life of Endura

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

what was the shelf life of Endura

1-2 years depending on storage conditions. At that point it visibly starts to go yellow/lime in the whites.

someone I know at Kodak Moments

The paper business was sold off by Kodak to Sinopromise years ago. The paper manufacturing plant was divested to Carestream, who fairly recently closed it. So Kodak hasn't had much to do with Endura for years now, apart from probably receiving some brand name licensing fees. Presently it seems that the license to Kodak paper names found its way to Chinese Lucky, but whether they can or want to use the Endura name specifically I don't know.

I really did not want this thread to devolve into a product availability post

OK, let's keep it at this then.

Have fun with the remaining Endura and good luck getting some DPII. The latter is different from Endura, and some (many) will prefer Endura over DPII, although arguably DPII is technically at least as good. Plain CA is technically an interior product, and as you've observed, this is quite noticeable.

 

[brbo]

As someone who likes to learn materials and shoot with their qualities in mind it is hard to get excited about other materials that may or may not be available in the future. Seeing Endura readily available with fresh expiration dates has me excited and I do hope it continues to be available. I already know I can’t count on DPII to be available for me, but maybe that will change in the future.

If you can't get DPII or Maxima, buy as much Endura as you can and freeze it (there's little chance that the reseller that is sitting on the last remaining Endura stock will be keeping it in a freezer). At room temperature with exp date in 2024 you are probably looking at 1 year or even less before it starts to show degradation. Ask me how I know...

I've printed on Endura, Maxima, DPII and CAII. Maxima is slightly punchier than Endura, DPII a bit less.

CAII <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< DPII << Endura < Maxima

The other difference is that Endura's whites are a bit warmer (slightly yellow) than Fuji's which are completely white.

My test of the CAII, Maxima, Endura (I've posted this before on Photrio):

 

[xtol121]

@brbo it’s interesting that Kodak’s paper even follows the aesthetic consideration of their film—Kodak being slightly warmer in general vs Fuji being a bit cooler overall.

Noted on purchasing extra paper to be safe. I go through about 2000’ per year at the moment. I imagine I can fit 2 rolls in my darkroom freezer and another 2 rolls in the fridge which should make this a problem for late 2025 if I buy now.

 

[mshchem]

I always used Kodak papers when it was still available in cut sheets, beautiful stuff. The Fuji cut sheets are flimsy and leave me missing the Kodak.

I was under the impression that Unique's supply was obtained from the last of the US production.

Who knows it might have been tied up in the collapse of the Kodak China business.

 

[halfaman]

@brbo it’s interesting that Kodak’s paper even follows the aesthetic consideration of their film—Kodak being slightly warmer in general vs Fuji being a bit cooler overall.

I tried many years ago Endura when Nordfoto sold it in sheets. I didn't see anything really special about it in terms of saturation or contrast compared to CA Supreme, just a warmer hue and creamier skin tones. Good for portraits but it didn't impress me at all. On the other hand Fuji DPII did impress me, there I saw more contrast and saturation. It is my paper since then.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Fuji makes quite a range of papers under the Crystal Archive category. All of them now come strictly in roll fashion except for CAii. Any of them are going to look dull and undersaturated if they aren't completely dry. Outdated paper is also a problem. CAii is a decent middle of the road paper capable of rich colors if you have the right negative; but it is not a top of the line product, nor does it have quite as much hue gamut as Fuji's premier offerings. It's in about the same league as CA Supreme.

DPii is just beginning to show up in the US. Another high quality product now available in Super C -N version. But no Maxima in the US currently. I personally use Fujiflex Supergloss, but that's in a league of its own, both in terms of look and price.

 

[wang qing song]

I'm using big rolls of Kodak and Lucky paper, both of which are used in color expanding machines, both of which are made in China, which is easy for me to get, relatively speaking Lucky black is a little bit less than Kodak, I haven't used the European Fuji

 

[koraks]

I'm using big rolls of Kodak and Lucky paper, both of which are used in color expanding machines, both of which are made in China, which is easy for me to get, relatively speaking Lucky black is a little bit less than Kodak, I haven't used the European Fuji

That's interesting; if you could post some examples of Lucky vs Chinese Kodak, that would be interesting.
I assume if you're using this paper in digital exposure, the color balance of the prints is pretty much the same since you'll likely use the appropriate LUT or calibration for each paper. Do you also optically enlarge negatives onto color paper? This tends to show much bigger differences between papers.

 

[wang qing song]

That's interesting; if you could post some examples of Lucky vs Chinese Kodak, that would be interesting.
I assume if you're using this paper in digital exposure, the color balance of the prints is pretty much the same since you'll likely use the appropriate LUT or calibration for each paper. Do you also optically enlarge negatives onto color paper? This tends to show much bigger differences between papers.

Last night, I used these two kinds of paper with Kodak Gold 200 film, enlarged two sheets, the bright side is Kodak paper, the soft side is lucky paper