Kodak Black and White Vs Kodak Black and White Plus (c41 bw films), is there a difference?

macfred · Jul 28, 2020

I use to buy my FUJI Neopan 400CN in the UK - it' seems to be fresh film - expiry date is 2021 and 2022.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jul 28, 2020

Paul Howell said:
From what I understand only sold in the UK. You might be able get from ebay sellers. Just checked, you can get from ebay from the UK. Don't understand why onl the UK as Ilford makes a version while Kodak abandoned CN, seems like the US would a better market.

Yea, just about every listing for the film is in the UK, though there is one domestic seller I'm considering.

foc · Jul 28, 2020

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
Alright, another question-
is the fuji 400CN still being made? I'm browsing ebay, and there is one listing citing a 12/20 expiratory date.
I know fuji doesn't sell all the films it makes in north america, but I thought only ilford still made c41 bw film- which begs the question, is the fuji bwcn exactly the same as xp2? I mean I've read a few sources saying ilford at least finished fuji's bwcn.

Fuji stopped selling Neopan 400CN about a year or so ago, I remember they withdrew it from their wholesale list.
Fuji always said that Neopan 400CN was not the same as XP2 super but was made to Fuji specifications.

Personally I don't believe this. I have shot and processed both films and I believe they are very similar (I have no scientific proof) but I have my years of film developing to rely on.
Chromogenic film is not as simple to make as traditional B&W film.

So is Fuji going to confect a special emulsion, get Ilford to use it to coat & pack their film and THEN limit it to sale in a small market?
(let the debate begin !!!!!!)

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jul 28, 2020

foc said:
Fuji stopped selling Neopan 400CN about a year or so ago, I remember they withdrew it from their wholesale list.
Fuji always said that Neopan 400CN was not the same as XP2 super but was made to Fuji specifications.

Personally I don't believe this. I have shot and processed both films and I believe they are very similar (I have no scientific proof) but I have my years of film developing to rely on.
Chromogenic film is not as simple to make as traditional B&W film.

So is Fuji going to confect a special emulsion, get Ilford to use it to coat & pack their film and THEN limit it to sale in a small market?
(let the debate begin !!!!!!)

When I get to cross processing my fuji CN, maybe then we'll see if there's a difference or not.

just don't know when I'm going to do it yet.

Donald Qualls · Jul 28, 2020

foc said:
Chromogenic film is not as simple to make as traditional B&W film.

While very true for a color film that must produce a negative that can be color corrected in printing or scanning to accurate color rendition, B&W chromogenic is far simpler.

There's only one sensitive layer, instead of three (or four, if you're Fuji), no filter layers, in Ilford's case, at least, little if any mask -- it's practically black and white film with a C-41 compatible grain structure and one single dye coupler (which couples black). You could make virtually any black and white film produce chromogenic images, just by adding a black-forming dye coupler to a color developer (same method used for color toning of prints), then bleach and fix after development. The major difference with CN B&W films is that the silver halide has to process at C-41 spec rather than "any old way as long as we can get the H&D curve we want." One of the reasons C-41 is cheaper to process (since the 1980s) than B&W is there's one C-41 process (given that Fuji and Kodak processes are effectively identical), instead of one process for each film stock and developer combination -- which lets C-41 go through an automatic machine with no adjustments needed (as long as it isn't pushed or pulled).

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jul 29, 2020

I just had my black and white plus slides scanned-

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Aug 4, 2020

Alright, another question yet again:
was the konica monochrome vx400 sold under any other names? I can only find one monochrome vx400 lot, and I'm not completely confident ordering something from Russia.

foc · Aug 5, 2020

IIRC the Konica monochrome VX400 was very similar to Kodak BW400CN.
I know it had the same orange mask as the Kodak.
My memory of processing and printing it, was that it handled the same as the Kodak chromogenic film
Again IIRC (and I stand to be corrected) Kodak made and sold some emulsions to Konica around the late 1980s early 1990s.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Aug 5, 2020

It's been mentioned here that the original kodak emulsion wasn't released until 1998, and bw400cn around 2004. Now, the konica monochrome vx I'm eying is 2006 expired.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Sep 3, 2020

OK, my initial AGFApan vario XL c41 trial is done- I will be doing my cross processing trial in about a month or so.

Acticus · Sep 3, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Which B&W developer did you use for developing XP2 Super?

i've souped XP-2 in Rodinal. Came out nice.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Sep 4, 2020

Acticus said:
i've souped XP-2 in Rodinal. Came out nice.

I'm not surprised. The film renders itself well for developing as a normal b&w film. Please share some results if you can.

fs999 · Sep 4, 2020

Agfa Super Isolette • Agfa Solinar 1:3.5/75
Ilford XP2 Super @100 ISO developed in Caffenol CLCS 75min stand @ 15-20°C

Plaubel Makina 67
Ilford XP2 Super developed in Caffenol CLCS (Cold Start) stand 90min @ 15-20°C

Plaubel Makina 67 • Nikorr 80mm F2.8
Ilford XP2 Super developed in Caffenol CLCS (Cold Start) stand 90min @ 15-20°C

Donald Qualls · Sep 4, 2020

I'll add to that, though my images aren't nearly as good (I've only processed one test roll so far):

Wirgin Auta 4.5, Radionar 105/4.5, XP2 Super, Df96

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Sep 5, 2020

Nice results! Thanks for sharing.

Still interested in seeing Rodinal results of @Acticus.

Donald Qualls · Sep 5, 2020

Oh, I found my scans of a couple rolls of T400CN that were process with bleach bypass -- C-41 color developer, then C-41 fixer, but the silver image left intermingled with the dye image. At EI 800, it produced some pretty decent image quality...

Voigtlander Rollfilmkamera, 105mm f/4.5 Anastigmat-Skopar, Kodak T400CN, EI 800, bleach bypassed

laser · Sep 5, 2020

Agfa Vario Pan of early 1980's was EI 400.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Sep 8, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I'm not surprised. The film renders itself well for developing as a normal b&w film. Please share some results if you can.

XP2 Super data sheet:
"We do not recommend conventional black and white processing for use with XP2 SUPER film since advantages such as grain free images and scanning with ICE will be lost. However, users have reported that a good quality image may be obtained using conventional black and white chemistry."

This should put any lingering doubts on conventional processing of XP2 Super to rest.

Donald Qualls · Sep 8, 2020

Based on my (so far limited) experience, XP2 Super works well in Df96 monobath, and I've seen many online examples of it processed in HC-110. If it works in both of those (seemingly with the same time/temp as Tri-X), and in Caffenol, there's no reason it wouldn't work in any other developer you'd use for Tri-X. No, not as "grainless" as the same film in C-41, but pretty fine grained for ISO 400.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Oct 29, 2020

Alright- Update time once again.
I got my c41 monochrome vx400 test back, and it came back massively faint. it came in a lot of three so I'm going to do another trial before I try crossing it in e6.
note- this film expired in 2006, and was imported to the US from Russia, which took over a month. I shot the roll at iso 250.

Also, I just sent out my Vario XL e6 cross this morning, so we'll see what those results look like in about a week or so.
And I have shot a fuji bwcn to be developed in c41, but that hasn't been processed yet.

Kodak Black and White Vs Kodak Black and White Plus (c41 bw films), is there a difference?

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