Kodak Alaris for Sale?

[BrianShaw]

Noooooo!

We want someone else to make it for us.

And we want it CHEAP.
And we want it GOOD.
And we want to BITCH about it.
And we want it to LAST FOREVER.
And we don’t have anything to do with it.

That’s what we want.

... and more than anything else... we want KODACHROME.

 

[mshchem]

I'm in. I'm going to swoop in and get Jeff Bezos'e's soon to be ex wife.

We will buy up Alaris and Eastman Kodak. Start making Instamatics again. Give away a camera to every high school kid in the world. Use Amazon to move the film and prints around. Ektachrome sheet film in 50 sheet boxes 11 X14 on down!

 

[jvo]

It probably has to do with "Building 38" ...

no, it has to do with area 51!

 

[1kgcoffee]

I've been wondering for several months what the future holds for Kodak. With their financial situation in question, how can they produce film even if there is significant demand? Creditors will demand liquidation of the company. Then Kodak Alaris is worth nothing because it has no product to sell.

Colour film is a special product that is not so easy to manufacture. It would be nice if the film division could be spun off or knowledge and equipment sold to some other company such as Adox that could continue to produce film well into the future if Kodak cannot. Unlike Blockbuster there isn't an alternative. Fuji is making their exit.

What is happening to the kodak debt that was due in January. I am waiting for some sort of announcement.

 

[lantau]

What is happening to the kodak debt that was due in January. I am waiting for some sort of announcement.

A while ago there was a discussion about EK share price movement. There was a link to a transcript of the quarterly analyst call. The way I understood it is that there are still some assets that they were planning to sell to repay the papers coming due.

 

[AgX]

Then Kodak Alaris is worth nothing because it has no product to sell.

Kodak Alaris sell various products. Out of our range they make themselves RA-4 papers in their own plant (another one they closed). Film is tollmade by Kodak (Eastman Kodak) for them.

 

[removed account4]

I've been wondering for several months what the future holds for Kodak. With their financial situation in question, how can they produce film even if there is significant demand? Creditors will demand liquidation of the company. Then Kodak Alaris is worth nothing because it has no product to sell.

IDK but in the linked to article it says "The KPP2 pension fund currently has a deficit of £1.5bil ($2.7 bil)..."
so it must mean they are loosing £ . I think im going to buy some more #'s of Silver Nitrate from Artcraft and stick my head in the sand because it seems to be one of two Timbuck3 songs either the future's so bright you gotta wear shades or you're broke and eating fried rice out of the dumpster beind the chinese restaurant.

 

[MattKing]

IDK but in the linked to article it says "The KPP2 pension fund currently has a deficit of £1.5bil ($2.7 bil)..."
so it must mean they are loosing £ .

The Kodak Pension Plan is the historic plan - the one that benefits the past employees of Kodak Limited, which was the UK subsidiary of Eastman Kodak.
Kodak Limited was the oldest and largest of all the "International" Kodaks and had many, many employees over the very long time it operated.
Like many defined benefit pension plans, the amounts invested over the years by Eastman Kodak through its subsidiary Kodak Limited were based on the actuarial projections of the time and assumptions about the likely investment return on those monies. And like many of those plans, those projections and assumptions turned out to be incorrect.
There is a lot of money in the plan - just not as much as those stubbornly long-lived Kodak Limited retirees are projected to need.
I can't put my fingers on the projected pension shortfall at the time of the bankruptcy, but I think that it was larger than the current numbers - Kodak Alaris' and other's efforts have been productive.
And by the way, the tax loss numbers referred to in that report are most likely connected to Kodak Alaris having available to them large deductions against income that came across with the purchase of its assets - not the more simple type of losses that come from making sales at a cost less than the cost of production.

 

[mshchem]

I've noticed this story is gone mainstream. Some are saying that this negotiation has been going on since January 2018. Part of me wants it to go back to EK, not sure if that would be good or not . Ilford investment folks would be my choice.

 

[kb3lms]

... According to the article, the photographic part of Kodak Alaris had sales of approximately $175 million - one quarter of total sales of $700 million - in 2017.
A business with that level of sales is probably worth more than $34 million.

I wish the place I worked had sales of $175 million!

 

[AgX]

Sales are not profits. And profits are meaningless if investors perceive the sector as not sexy, as oldfashioned, as without a future.

 

[BrianShaw]

Petapixel’s discussion of this topic was just posted on Facebook... with a bit of a Chicken Little flair. I hope the sky isn’t really falling!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/LosAngelesFilmPhotography/permalink/2591512437532277/

https://petapixel.com/2019/02/04/kodak-film-business-on-brink-of-being-sold-report/

 

[mshchem]

Here's the link to Kodak Alaris annual reports. Shows what is going on. Color negative paper sales are way off. Alaris is dumping the PPF (paper, photochemicals, and film) clearly for Alaris there's a better way to use the capital to support the retirement fund.

https://www.kodakalaris.com/company/financials
It would make the most sense for it to go back to EK but who knows? Could be someone who wants to sell Kodachrome brand soft drinks

 

[Toasty]

I'm not going to pretend like I can read financial reports with any authority, but they have stated that they are profitable.

Let's say that PPF is sold off to a company who will do great with it, all the manufacturing of the film it's self is made by Eastman Kodak... That's really quite scary. EK is a bloated, slowly sinking barge. They have paid off some 200 million in debt in the past few years but are still not profitable right now. Even if we survive this sale, what could happen in the next few years? All of Kodak's film offerings are lashed to a boat anchor. In a dream world, PPF would be sold off to a film company like Ilford or ADOX and the Kodak film manufacturing would be spun off to safety as it's own entity. I'd imagine it would be better for tax reasons to not be just one company.

It's quite worrisome, I was hoping not to have to worry about all this for another decade at least. Losing color film would be a huge loss, but I would still be shooting b&w. With Tetenal's future uncertain and them making all of Ilford's chemicals it could all go south very quickly.

 

[1kgcoffee]

Black and white chemistry is not difficult to mix and can last a very long time. The film can last a very long time as well. Colour is a bit different. I suppose you could hoard the film and find a way to mix homebrew chemistry from cd3, cd4, ferricyanide and thiosulfate, dealing with poorer, crossover infected negatives as film ages and chemistry shifts.

I don't mean to fear monger. We must accept reality whatever comes and learn to deal with it. But the cracks have been present for a long time now lets not be pollyana about this and pretend everything is fine until stock is no longer available. Folks, if you love colour film and paper, now is the time to stock up. Fingers crossed that the situation resolves itself, market consolidates and we can all be wet printing our negatives when men are walking on other planets.

 

[mshchem]

I'm not going to pretend like I can read financial reports with any authority, but they have stated that they are profitable.

Let's say that PPF is sold off to a company who will do great with it, all the manufacturing of the film it's self is made by Eastman Kodak... That's really quite scary. EK is a bloated, slowly sinking barge. They have paid off some 200 million in debt in the past few years but are still not profitable right now. Even if we survive this sale, what could happen in the next few years? All of Kodak's film offerings are lashed to a boat anchor. In a dream world, PPF would be sold off to a film company like Ilford or ADOX and the Kodak film manufacturing would be spun off to safety as it's own entity. I'd imagine it would be better for tax reasons to not be just one company.

It's quite worrisome, I was hoping not to have to worry about all this for another decade at least. Losing color film would be a huge loss, but I would still be shooting b&w. With Tetenal's future uncertain and them making all of Ilford's chemicals it could all go south very quickly.

I'm not sure that going back to Kodak would be such a bad thing. As you have observed Kodak has floundered as a corporation. It's not inconceivable that Kodak could spinoff the "building 38 folks" and keep Alaris key distribution, sales, etc folks and form a public or private enterprise . Don't forget that private equity firms hold a lot of Kodak stock. Maybe April 1st may not be a Fool's Day after all.

 

[Nzoomed]

Was reading this yesterday in the news, i think the price is cheap TBH

 

[mshchem]

Was reading this yesterday in the news, i think the price is cheap TBH

It's only value is as a starting point. Instead of business as usual. Need to find a product that every person on the planet can warm up to. That's what George Eastman did, that's what Henry Ford did , Edwin Land, Steve Jobs...
Kodak film is a miraculous medium, the market may have stabilized temporarily, but the only new cameras are 4000 dollar Leicas. Somehow there needs to be a Brownie, or a inexpensive platform that KodakAlaris / Kodak can go forward with. Not some sourced, branded item. Something that Kodak does better than anyone else.

 

[jrhilton]

Here's the link to Kodak Alaris annual reports. Shows what is going on. Color negative paper sales are way off. Alaris is dumping the PPF (paper, photochemicals, and film) clearly for Alaris there's a better way to use the capital to support the retirement fund.

https://www.kodakalaris.com/company/financials
It would make the most sense for it to go back to EK but who knows? Could be someone who wants to sell Kodachrome brand soft drinks

Thanks for sharing the link, PPF is classed as a discontinued operation, that says it all really....

 

[NB23]

Ok, so Alaris couldn’t sell bulk rolls with a huge premium to a crowd that they thought was stupid (is there any other way to say it?).

What was that about?

 

[mshchem]

Ok, so Alaris couldn’t sell bulk rolls with a huge premium to a crowd that they thought was stupid (is there any other way to say it?).

What was that about?

Sounds like the Asian market is being served by others, at the same the market for cnp, is shrinking dramatically . Alaris is hanging onto it's dry print kiosks, they are just getting out of AgX.

 

[AgX]

In a dream world, PPF would be sold off to a film company like Ilford or ADOX and the Kodak film manufacturing would be spun off to safety as it's own entity.

Both firms have overcapacity respectively are build up for small production from the start. Why acquire a further plant (PPF business)? More so a plant for a market that so far was not theirs and that is shrinking. Keep in mind the most modern RA-4 paper plant went for scrap metal already about 15 years ago.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Kodak Ektachrome Back

Let's just say that link is to an under 6-month old article. Perhaps actual Kodak is taking Alaris back? key to happiness is to remain positive until all options are kaput.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Sounds like the Asian market is being served by others, at the same the market for cnp, is shrinking dramatically . Alaris is hanging onto it's dry print kiosks, they are just getting out of AgX.

No. The comment I heard from someone well connected to the manufacturers was to the effect that Fuji's CN paper market had shrunk by a truly drastic amount, but that across all the manufacturers, some negative products are at sales levels not seen for 20 years. RA4 isn't going to disappear, but it may become a much more niche/ art product - one outcome of which might be renewed cut sheet availability of a wider range of papers (I've seen some fairly positive sounding comments about this to the effect of 'actively being looked at' from Alaris as to products they can make/ re-introduce).

 

[mshchem]

It will be an interesting year. Hopefully it will all work out. Keep people employed and continue to provide current and new products.