Kodak Alaris discontinues BW400CN film

Frank Dean,  Blacksmith

A
Frank Dean, Blacksmith

  • 10
  • 5
  • 92
Woman wearing shades.

Woman wearing shades.

  • 1
  • 1
  • 91
Curved Wall

A
Curved Wall

  • 6
  • 0
  • 106
Crossing beams

A
Crossing beams

  • 11
  • 1
  • 126

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
198,846
Messages
2,781,784
Members
99,728
Latest member
rohitmodi
Recent bookmarks
0

Jaf-Photo

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
495
Format
Medium Format
Hi Jaf-

I have altered your text

I normally carry a chromogenic mono in gbag just in case I need to do available darkness I don't mind the ISO 1600 signature.

But I have given them away to NOOBYs who have just bought a film camera of a street seller.

Normally you need to get (show) them (how) to load the film and close the door, ...

And download the free manual to smart phone and read it in coffee shop before they shoot any shots, the camera is typically a OM1n or K1000!

And tell them where a Minilab is...

People are magpies they buy shiny bright things...

I commend you on this admirable action to promote film.

This is exactly what Kodak Alaris shoud be doing on a commercial scale.

But I suspect they don't want to get stuck with a new generation of film shooters who want old hat films from the new digital Kodak.
 

Roger Cole

Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
6,069
Location
Atlanta GA
Format
Multi Format
Maybe, but lets look at another example: lomography - they are selling 35mm and 120 films and new cameras, and they are standing very good in the big market.
I think that Kodak could do better sales (and not discontinue the films) if they try harder, and adopt more to market. But more probable way will be slow agony, bankruptcy and total shutdown of all films soon.

Oh I know Kodak/KA could do better - I don't dispute that. I just don't think the loss of BW400CN means much at all.
 

darkosaric

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
4,568
Location
Hamburg, DE
Format
Multi Format
By the way, did you see that Kodak has launched a new micro 4/3 mirrorless digital camera?

They could launch new fancy design disposable half frame camera - promote it "72 true B&W photos on one CN400 film" - I would buy it, and many others as well if marketing would be right.
Or disposable panorama 24x65mm, or square 24x24mm format. Or disposable medium format camera... something new with nice design and with proper marketing - masses will buy that.

They could join with Amazon or with somebody and include shipping and developing in premium price - so that people know that they need not to worry about this...where there's a will there's a way. But I don't see it at Kodak.
 

AgX

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,973
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
Sheesh, this is a film that was barely used, not widely liked, and that many people did not even realize was still made, for a market that pretty much died when the minilabs did.

At least in Western Europe industrial fotofinishers not only had a major market before the spreading of minilabs but still have after their reduction. For those finishers cromogenic b&w films are ideal. (Some nevertheles still process classic b&w film.)
 

Xmas

Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
6,398
Location
UK
Format
35mm RF
It doesn't prove a thing. Impossible film is a niche product made in tiny quantities for a tiny market so it has to sell for a high price and they can get it. Very, very different from 35mm and 120 or even conventional sheet film.

Sheesh, this is a film that was barely used, not widely liked, and that many people did not even realize was still made, for a market that pretty much died when the minilabs did.

Id a thought that to except the appeal court judgement Kodak v Polariod reduce the damage claim from 10,000 to 925 million USD cause the 60 min mini lab had damaged the instant photo market!

The c41 mini labs killed Polariod.

But they in turn are disappearing like dodos. C41 will soon be postal only.

Our street market stalls have one or a shelf of used plastic cameras starting at 20 GBP with film at 22 GBP from film shops.

Most ladies carry big bags with strange payload the last one I asked what else do you carry (as well as a pola she had to hand,) had a video and still - both digital.

The instant market improves every time a mini lab closes. Impossible could think about camera manufacture soon?
 

Xmas

Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
6,398
Location
UK
Format
35mm RF
I think that Kodak could do better sales (and not discontinue the films) if they try harder, and adopt more to market. But more probable way will be slow agony, bankruptcy and total shutdown of all films soon.

We have already had eg

IR disappearing
Plus-X disappearing &
chapter 11 already

Fuji are dumping Agfa Vista very close to manufacturing $...
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
You nailed the significance right there. Kodak Alaris took over film sales and *nothing changed*. Film sales continued to decline even with an "owner" that is ostensibly interested in maintaining or improving film sales (unlike Eastman Kodak which declared film a non core business).

Even with that improvement, Kodak Alaris' sales dwindled to the point that a film died.

There is *no reason* why BW400CN had to die. Ilford's XP2 shows that a C41 monochrome film *can survive* in today's film market.

Kodak Alaris' ownership of film has not stopped the bleeding.

Hi RattyMouse:

i see where you are coming from, but i still fail to see how this is a huge symbolic significance.
companies are not a charity, they stop making distributing things that don't sell well, and obviously
this film did not sell as well as they had hoped in the "corrected" film market.

there is one company that makes single weight paper ( slavich i think ? )
i think ilford stopped making direct positive paper ... or selling coated glass plates
fewer companies make graded paper, or paper with a tooth on it so you can abrade it + add graphite to it afterwards
or film 126 or 110 cartridges, or on 116, or 620 spools &c...

things get discontinued all the time, it is a fact of life ... 400cn didn't sell well enough and it got discontinued ...
luckily there are other films that do something similar so they can pick up the slack ...

film or paper being discontinued is not really a huge symbolic significance ...
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
To me it's obvious why it is of huge symbolic significance.

(1) Film is not safe in the hands of Kodak Alaris.

(2) Kodak Alaris makes no effort to promote their films before cancelling them.

(3) The cancelled film BW400CN was key to the recruitment of new film users.

(4) The loss of competing products is harmful to consumers in the long run.

Even if CN films are not that interesting to most apug users, they are hugely important to new film users. They make it possible for any kid to buy film locally, have it processed locally and to get usable scans with no effort.

Someone called CN film a gateway drug to film photography, and I agree with that in the best possible sense.

sorry i disagree with pretty much everything you have said :sad:
in a lot of places there is no place left for a kid or an adult to have any c41 film processed locally
that is precisely one of the problems with the c41/e6 film markets, the infrastructure to have them processed locally vanished
pro labs have shut down and for the person that doesn't really want to send out because it is a PITA and they don't wan to risk having their film lost
in the mail &c it is not an option, just like processing at home is not an option. not to forget fuji labs is a shadow of what it used to be
and is the only massive lab that picks up from pharmacies, walmart &c these days, in the states, and a lot of the places that still have send out service to fuji ... fuji doesn't return the negatives.
if 400cn was the only b/w choice i had, and the only lab i could have it processed at locally charged me $$ to develop and print my film, but didn't return my negatives
i would stop using that film too ...

alaris is not a charity, if things don't sell well enough to have 100 miles coated, they should be able to say, they don't want to distribute it without people suggesting they are incompetent ...
i mean if you just took over the sales and distribution of product of a bankrupt company and you were given an option to have another 100 miles of product made that cost more to make than sell
and most will probably go unsold because so much has to be made at once and sales are down ... or not sell it, what would you do ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

AgX

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,973
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
sorry i disagree with pretty much everything you have said :sad:
in a lot of places there is no place left for a kid or an adult to have any c41 film processed locally
that is precisely one of the problems with the c41/e6 film markets, the infrastructure to have them processed locally vanished...

...in the mail &c it is not an option, just like processing at home is not an option. not to forget fuji labs is a shadow of what it used to be
and is the only massive lab that picks up from pharmacies, walmart &c these days, in the states, and a lot of the places that still have send out service to fuji ... fuji doesn't return the negatives.


Please do not forget that there is film-life outside the USA too.
With film availaible at the local drugstores and give-in and take-out of industrial processed films and prints.
 

mooseontheloose

Moderator
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
4,110
Location
Kyoto, Japan
Format
Multi Format
I only shot Kodak BW400CN once in my life, and that was on a trip to Spain during Holy Week. I was new to black and white and didn't really understand the differences between the different offerings. But BW400CN was everywhere, and cheap, so I stocked up on it. And not that it's a bad film, but I've regretted ever since. It has been almost impossible for me to get any good prints from it in the darkroom. I understand that it might have been a gateway film to those interested in trying it, but like so many others have mentioned, if people are really interested in black and white, I think it would be better to get them started with XP2 or any other true black and white film.

I was on a recent trip up north to photograph the festivals in Tohoku, and subsequently ran out of 400 speed black and white film in 35mm. I would have shot anything, had I been able to find it, but the only film available was BW400CN. And guess what? I gave up being able to capture any kind of image rather than shoot on that film. If I can't use it in the darkroom, then what's the point? Of course I'm sad to see it (or any film stock) go, but I personally won't miss it.
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
Please do not forget that there is film-life outside the USA too.
With film availaible at the local drugstores and give-in and take-out of industrial processed films and prints.

i know AgX
as i said in the post just before the one you responded to, i am speaking of the us market
not outside the usa, i have no idea what things are like outside the usa since i don't live there ( and only visit periodically )
and don't have deep firsthand knowledge. i was speaking specifically of my "locally" where i live and have been working
as a professional for nearly 30 years ... 90% ( probably more than that) of the labs have vanished, and there are very few if any
places for a local person to have their film processed and printed locally ... and if it goes to an industrial commercial lab ( fujilabs ) they won't return your film
only give you locally printed dye sub prints and a cd of low rez scans.

yeah i am myopic, i know, and i do realize that by not advertising product that needs advertising, or partnering up with labs if labs are needed ...
is not a good business plan ... but that's life, unfortunately ..

in europe + outside the us drug store, mini lab, pro lab, and industrial/commercial send out services are thriving ?
that's good to hear ...
 

GarageBoy

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
992
Format
35mm
Kodak should go back to their old formula... MAKE/contract out some inexpensive cameras
Lots of people into LPs, lots of people who go nuts over the lomo stuff
Remake a cheap 6x9 folder, remake a Pony 135, remake the Brownie
Have some factory in the US crank em out
 

PKM-25

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Messages
1,980
Location
Enroute
Format
Multi Format
Gateway drug my rear end.

I used it a few times before I had a home developing method and while it was a pseudo-fun black and white result, I remember talking to the lab owner at the time...well before he closed shop three years ago and he said that he usually had to discount it as it went short dated, most either wanted real black and white or real color, not a black and white color film.

Now, I live in one of the most photographed places in the world, we once had two full service Labs that did up to 8x10 E6 in less than 4 hours and a couple of mini labs. We are still very much photographed, but all the labs are gone, in fact there are none in the entire 40 mile long valley, because the DEMAND is NOT there!!!

I talk to people every day in my line of work as a photographer and I get hit up for Q&A every time I am seen with a camera and the vast majority only know Kodak or Fuji in terms of brands. Does anyone think that Ilford should be hitting those people with inventive new marketing to get them to put down their iPhones and pickup an XP2 disposable camera? Or put a slick $30,000 ad in a glossy for HP5 or Delta? I'm sorry but the media kind of screwed all of us, Ilford included when they reported that Tarantino forked over big bucks to save Kodak cine film but did not at all mention that still film stays viable in that arrangement.

I half wonder if Simon Galley cringes when people talk of all Kodak film going away as some form of an infantile tantrum, because like it or not, some of Ilford's sales have to be riding on the fact that Kodak's good news of staying afloat allows at least the notion that film is still around.

EK has to coat about two miles of EACH film type in both smaller formats and then thicker sheet film when they run it, a mile of leader and tail, a mile of usable stock. Not a huge deal for great sellers like Tmax, Tri-X, Ektars and Portras. But film like Portra 800, 400CN, tough call. And despite all the info we graciously get from Ilford, we still don't hear what the smallest coating run they can do is, at least that I have heard.

Losing a film like Portra 400 or Tri-X would be genuine cause for concern, this one is simply not. All it really amounts to is giving those who's pure life joy is Kodak bashing something to talk about.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
2,192
Format
Multi Format
Dear Daniel,

And despite all the info we graciously get from Ilford, we still don't hear what the smallest coating run they can do is, at least that I have heard.

at the Ilford factory tour last year Simon told us the maximum width they can coat is 1,42 meters (you can order paper rolls in that width).
The maximum length of the parent rolls is about 2500 meters.
Both width and length can vary depending on the product.
They can produce one single parent roll of a certain product. And they are really doing such niche productions.
So their minimum production volume is about 2500 m².

Best regards,
Henning
 

GarageBoy

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
992
Format
35mm
Fuji/Kodak/whoever cares should really put themselves out

There's a decent amount of people, who at the very least would like to try and use film, they just don't know its still out there. They'll walk right on by the displays at drug stores, because, when you're at a drug store, how many people are ACTUALLY looking for film there?

Have a booth at an event, hand out disposables, offer on site development, loan out instaxes

It'll make the masses remember, and nostalgia sells
 

PKM-25

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Messages
1,980
Location
Enroute
Format
Multi Format
Dear Daniel,



at the Ilford factory tour last year Simon told us the maximum width they can coat is 1,42 meters (you can order paper rolls in that width).
The maximum length of the parent rolls is about 2500 meters.
Both width and length can vary depending on the product.
They can produce one single parent roll of a certain product. And they are really doing such niche productions.
So their minimum production volume is about 2500 m².

So if I am not mistaken, this is actually a larger amount of production run requirement than even Kodak is constantly lambasted for having....?

Kodak's max / nominal width is 1.37 meters and 1,609 of usable stock, I am assuming the 2,500 meter amount for Ilford is the minimum run?

What ever the case, thanks for showing that Ilford is indeed *not* capable of the much speculated smaller runs of film that people arm chair report.
 

railwayman3

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
2,816
Format
35mm
So if I am not mistaken, this is actually a larger amount of production run requirement than even Kodak is constantly lambasted for having....?

Kodak's max / nominal width is 1.37 meters and 1,609 of usable stock, I am assuming the 2,500 meter amount for Ilford is the minimum run?

What ever the case, thanks for showing that Ilford is indeed *not* capable of the much speculated smaller runs of film that people arm chair report.

But the previous quote said maximum width was 1.42 meters, maximum length 2500 meters. So presumably smaller runs can be made? (Not sure where the suggestion of minimum production run of 2500 sq. meters comes from?)

I do remember it being explained on the factory tour that their main coating machine is highly versatile, being able to coat film, paper and even inkjet products. And they seem to have the schedules worked out that they never run out of fresh stock of any finished product, even though the sales of some of the more specialist lines cannot be large.

As one who has experienced Ilford's hospitality and openness on a factory tour, I was highly impressed by their enthusiasm and dedication to analog, so don't need to speculate from my armchair. I'd rather get out taking pictures, or get into the darkroom and produce some prints. :smile:
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,364
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
sorry i disagree with pretty much everything you have said :sad:
in a lot of places there is no place left for a kid or an adult to have any c41 film processed locally
that is precisely one of the problems with the c41/e6 film markets, the infrastructure to have them processed locally vanished
pro labs have shut down and for the person that doesn't really want to send out because it is a PITA and they don't wan to risk having their film lost
in the mail &c it is not an option, just like processing at home is not an option. not to forget fuji labs is a shadow of what it used to be
and is the only massive lab that picks up from pharmacies, walmart &c these days, in the states, and a lot of the places that still have send out service to fuji ... fuji doesn't return the negatives.
if 400cn was the only b/w choice i had, and the only lab i could have it processed at locally charged me $$ to develop and print my film, but didn't return my negatives
i would stop using that film too ...

alaris is not a charity, if things don't sell well enough to have 100 miles coated, they should be able to say, they don't want to distribute it without people suggesting they are incompetent ...
i mean if you just took over the sales and distribution of product of a bankrupt company and you were given an option to have another 100 miles of product made that cost more to make than sell
and most will probably go unsold because so much has to be made at once and sales are down ... or not sell it, what would you do ?

Well said.
 

AgX

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,973
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
Basically one can make any lenght down to 1m.
The problem are material losses in the coating system, and the man-hours to get things running and to shut down. These are basic, fixed costs and would have to be paid by the client whatever area he orders.

To a certain extant this is true for emulsion making too.


Due to that manufacturers typically state for practicability reasons a minimum order.
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,364
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
To me it's obvious why it is of huge symbolic significance.

(1) Film is not safe in the hands of Kodak Alaris.

(2) Kodak Alaris makes no effort to promote their films before cancelling them.

(3) The cancelled film BW400CN was key to the recruitment of new film users.

(4) The loss of competing products is harmful to consumers in the long run.

Even if CN films are not that interesting to most apug users, they are hugely important to new film users. They make it possible for any kid to buy film locally, have it processed locally and to get usable scans with no effort.

Someone called CN film a gateway drug to film photography, and I agree with that in the best possible sense.

My "go to source" on illogical and random non-sequitur thinking comes through as always. This is a great source of amusement. Keep your day job.
 
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
2,192
Format
Multi Format
Dear Daniel,

So if I am not mistaken, this is actually a larger amount of production run requirement than even Kodak is constantly lambasted for having....?

well, no, not quite.

Kodak's max / nominal width is 1.37 meters and 1,609 of usable stock, I am assuming the 2,500 meter amount for Ilford is the minimum run?

Kodak's coating width is 54" (1,35 meter), maximum length is about 11,000 feet, a typical film master roll has about 6000 feet according to Robert Shanebrooks excellent book "Making Kodak Film".

The 2500 meter are the max. length of a parent roll at Ilford. Shorter length are possible.

What ever the case, thanks for showing that Ilford is indeed *not* capable of the much speculated smaller runs of film that people arm chair report.

Well, the difference is Ilford can make such very small runs of only one parent roll at reasonable costs.
And, very important, they can now finish a parent roll in parts over the time, depending on demand. In former times a parent roll must have been finished completely in one production run. This costs are now avoided.

AFAIK Kodak does not make such one parent roll / master roll production runs.That is why they have discontinued all their niche products.

AFAIK Ilford is currently the only one in the industry who can make such extremely small 2500 m² production runs. Even Foma need more for their minimum.
Film Ferrania will be able to make smaller runs than Ilford, if their efforts are successful (I visited them last autumn and have seen their machinery).
At which costs, we will see.....

Best regards,
Henning
 

PKM-25

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Messages
1,980
Location
Enroute
Format
Multi Format
Thanks Henning! I appreciate your level headed insight, now if we could just get rid of the person who constantly drives Kodak into the ground at any chance they get, this site would be a much, MUCH better place.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

jerrybro

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Messages
395
Location
Philippines
Format
Large Format Pan
...There's a decent amount of people, who at the very least would like to try and use film, they just don't know its still out there. They'll walk right on by the displays at drug stores, because, when you're at a drug store, how many people are ACTUALLY looking for film there? ...

I can't tell you how often I hear "You can still but film? I thought they quit making it."
 
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
2,192
Format
Multi Format
Thanks Henning! I appreciate your level headed insight, now if we could just get rid of the person who constantly drives Kodak into the ground at any chance they get, this site would be a much, MUCH better place.

Hi Daniel,

you're welcome.
My personal view on all this:
Film is my preferred photographic medium, I just love it. And I want it to stay, as healthy as possible.That is why I am working in several projects to support film and to get young photographers interested in classic film photography.
I am using Ilford, Fuji, Kodak, Adox, Rollei / Agfa and Foma films.
I am using colour and BW transparency films, colour and BW negative films, instant film.
I love projecting my slides in their unsurpassed quality.
And I am making prints in my own darkroom.

I don't want to see another product or manufacturer go. But as I know the market and the numbers, I also know what is realistic and what is not.

The best all we can do here is
- shoot more film
- shoot all the different types of film to keep them alive
- don't waste our time in forums on speculation and doom and gloom threads, better to go out and shoot film instead
- get other photographers interested in film (with the internet and social media it is indeed much easier compared to former times)
- support those projects which already do promote film.

Everyone of us can do something in this direction.

Best regards,
Henning
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom