Kodak Alaris discontinues BW400CN film

Ken Nadvornick · Aug 21, 2014

PKM-25 said:
I *highly* doubt that, both Tmax films are in a solid class by them selves, I suspect they would be among the very last to go.

And if EK/KA would just issue their loyal customer base a little bit of forward-looking product guidance for their remaining film lines, then you (and everyone else) wouldn't be forced into "suspecting" anything. You wouldn't have to. You would know. We would know. Everyone would know. And this thread would not end up in another ugly death spiral of "Kodak bashing" like so many others before it.

Did you notice the preemptive Harman XP2 product guidance thread? The one announcing the Harman press release on the subject. Do you now hear any unwarranted suspicions being voiced here regarding the future of that product?

Not trying to pick on you, Dan. Really I'm not. It's just that the obvious is sometimes just so damned... umm, obvious.

Ken

[Edit: Dan, take a look down the page here at post #105. That's exactly what happens within the vacuum created by a lack of credible product guidance...]

Prof_Pixel · Aug 21, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
And if EK/KA would just issue their loyal customer base a little bit of forward-looking product guidance for their remaining film lines, then you (and everyone else) wouldn't be forced into "suspecting" anything. You wouldn't have to. You would know. We would know. Everyone would know.

My best guess is that at this time, KA doesn't have any firm product plans and are at present, 'shooting from the hip'. Their one goal is, and must be, to figure out a strategy that will make money. If they are discontinuing a product like BW400CN it's because the projected sales of the product won't cover the manufacturing cost they must pay Kodak and the associated distribution costs.

I know some here probably think the only reason they are doing this is to 'wind up' RM.

Peter de Groot · Aug 21, 2014

Peter de Groot said:
I have still 30 odd rolls left in 120 format. Not been cooled or anything. I wanted it to use as testfilm but I never bothered. Wanna have it?

Without track and trace shipping will be around 18,00. That would be around $25,00? I have 3 cartons with 4 propacks in it. Exp date 2010. Interested?

RalphLambrecht · Aug 21, 2014

snapguy said:
Never heard of it so I guess I won't miss it.

with Ilford's committment to XP2,there is no need for this film.if it goes,others may live longer.

jerrybro · Aug 21, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
with Ilford's committment to XP2,there is no need for this film.if it goes,others may live longer.

I have always used Kodak products. Never really tried any other suppliers because the yellow box was always there. Well, that was then and this is now. Since I'm looking at recalibrating my process maybe it is finally time to leave, and venture into something that might be as committed to me as I am to it. At this rate I'd have to do it eventually anyway.

Ken Nadvornick · Aug 21, 2014

Prof_Pixel said:
My best guess is that at this time, KA doesn't have any firm product plans and are at present, 'shooting from the hip'. Their one goal is, and must be, to figure out a strategy that will make money.

"Shooting from the hip" sure doesn't inspire future product availability confidence, although I strongly suspect you are correct.

Ken

Pioneer · Aug 21, 2014

Prof_Pixel said:
My best guess is that at this time, KA doesn't have any firm product plans and are at present, 'shooting from the hip'. Their one goal is, and must be, to figure out a strategy that will make money. If they are discontinuing a product like BW400CN it's because the projected sales of the product won't cover the manufacturing cost they must pay Kodak and the associated distribution costs.

I know some here probably think the only reason they are doing this is to 'wind up' RM.

We have this in a number of our drugstores as well though I have the feeling that there isn't a lot of it flying off the shelves.

The sad thing is that I know a number of people who still use film, mostly because they haven't migrated to digital yet. But several of them were quite surprised to know that Kodak was even still in business. In my area the majority of film in the stores is Fuji Superia so that is what most of them buy now.

RattyMouse · Aug 21, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
with Ilford's committment to XP2,there is no need for this film.if it goes,others may live longer.

Very true. Every discontinued Kodak black and white film just makes Ilford that much stronger.

markbarendt · Aug 21, 2014

Peter de Groot said:
Without track and trace shipping will be around 18,00. That would be around $25,00? I have 3 cartons with 4 propacks in it. Exp date 2010. Interested?

PM sent

markbarendt · Aug 21, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
with Ilford's committment to XP2,there is no need for this film.if it goes,others may live longer.

Well actually BW400CN is more straightforward to print on RA paper....

XP2 is a great film though and I hope that Ilford can capitalize on Kodak's retreat here.

Roger Cole · Aug 21, 2014

Pioneer said:
I for one am disappointed. Obviously Ilford will be getting my business here since they are the "last film standing."

I did use this film alongside the traditional b&w films as it provided certain unique advantages. I could shoot at ISO200, 400, 800, and even 1600 on the same roll and still develop it all together. I could develop it in the same batch as all my other color films. I know this isn't critically important to APUGers but it is wonderfully easy to scan, even allowing dust controls.

It didn't take the place of regular black & white, but it is still sad to lose options. But obviously Kodak was right in this case. Not many are sad to see this one go. It looks as if I am one of the few who regularly used it.

As everyone else is also saying, all of that is just as true of XP2 Super, plus it prints easily on regular black and white paper in a regular darkroom as well and it's available in 120 which I don't think the Kodak stuff has been for some time. Just pick up some XP2 and you're good to go for all those same things.

PKM-25 · Aug 22, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
Not trying to pick on you, Dan. Really I'm not. It's just that the obvious is sometimes just so damned... umm, obvious.

I don't really give a cr@p about what people say anymore Ken, nothing is "obvious" to me except to make the best imagery I can with the films I love to use. In the case of KA, not only can I still buy what I need and have plenty of stock, I can and will plunk down big bucks to stock up one last time if discontinuation announcements are made. That will give me not months but years to migrate to another film type.

Call me stupid, but I am a much happier photographer this way...

removed account4 · Aug 22, 2014

Jaf-Photo said:
KA announcing its first film discontinuation has a huge symbolic significance.

how is this a huge symbolic significance ?
its a film that probably didn't sell well enough to keep making
and they axed it. EK has been doing this since forever .. and it seems like business as usual.
i have no idea why this is so significant and symbolic? significant that they are paying attention to film sales and getting rid of things
that don't make enough profit? doesn't seem significant or symbolic to me ... just good business sense ..

RattyMouse · Aug 22, 2014

jnanian said:
how is this a huge symbolic significance ?
its a film that probably didn't sell well enough to keep making
and they axed it. EK has been doing this since forever .. and it seems like business as usual.
i have no idea why this is so significant and symbolic? significant that they are paying attention to film sales and getting rid of things
that don't make enough profit? doesn't seem significant or symbolic to me ... just good business sense ..

You nailed the significance right there. Kodak Alaris took over film sales and *nothing changed*. Film sales continued to decline even with an "owner" that is ostensibly interested in maintaining or improving film sales (unlike Eastman Kodak which declared film a non core business).

Even with that improvement, Kodak Alaris' sales dwindled to the point that a film died.

There is *no reason* why BW400CN had to die. Ilford's XP2 shows that a C41 monochrome film *can survive* in today's film market.

Kodak Alaris' ownership of film has not stopped the bleeding.

Roger Cole · Aug 22, 2014

jnanian said:
how is this a huge symbolic significance ?
its a film that probably didn't sell well enough to keep making
and they axed it. EK has been doing this since forever .. and it seems like business as usual.
i have no idea why this is so significant and symbolic? significant that they are paying attention to film sales and getting rid of things
that don't make enough profit? doesn't seem significant or symbolic to me ... just good business sense ..

It isn't.

skysh4rk · Aug 22, 2014

RattyMouse said:
You nailed the significance right there. Kodak Alaris took over film sales and *nothing changed*. Film sales continued to decline even with an "owner" that is ostensibly interested in maintaining or improving film sales (unlike Eastman Kodak which declared film a non core business).

Even with that improvement, Kodak Alaris' sales dwindled to the point that a film died.

There is *no reason* why BW400CN had to die. Ilford's XP2 shows that a C41 monochrome film *can survive* in today's film market.

Kodak Alaris' ownership of film has not stopped the bleeding.

The writing was on the wall for this film long before Kodak Alaris ever existed as Kodak itself had already discontinued the film in 120 format, so I don't think the discontinuation of the 135 variety says very much about anything at this point.

As a 120 shooter, I'll happily continue using Fuji 400CN as my main C41 B&W with a bit of occasional XP2 use thrown in. Business as usual for me.

RattyMouse · Aug 22, 2014

skysh4rk said:
The writing was on the wall for this film long before Kodak Alaris ever existed as Kodak itself had already discontinued the film in 120 format, so I don't think the discontinuation of the 135 variety says very much about anything at this point.

As a 120 shooter, I'll happily continue using Fuji 400CN as my main C41 B&W with a bit of occasional XP2 use thrown in. Business as usual for me.

I am making the connection in performance (sales) between Eastman and Alaris. I am not blaming Alaris for the death of this film, other than that their efforts to save this film (if there were any, who can tell?) had exactly the same affect that Eastman's did.

Again, this film did NOT have to die. Ilford proves this every day.

Kodak failed, again, to find a market for their world class (and I mean this seriously; every account says this was a great product) film.

Xmas · Aug 22, 2014

RattyMouse said:
You nailed the significance right there. Kodak Alaris took over film sales and *nothing changed*. Film sales continued to decline even with an "owner" that is ostensibly interested in maintaining or improving film sales (unlike Eastman Kodak which declared film a non core business).

Even with that improvement, Kodak Alaris' sales dwindled to the point that a film died.

There is *no reason* why BW400CN had to die. Ilford's XP2 shows that a C41 monochrome film *can survive* in today's film market.

Kodak Alaris' ownership of film has not stopped the bleeding.

EKs coater can only make several foot ball pitches of film at a time it is a 'cine' machine.
EK closed their lower volume machines down in 2005.
Ilfords coater may be smaller than the Kodak lower volume machines were.
But you can expect lower volume films and paper to die in future. If we don't buy enough it will dissappear.
Now the 'we' in this is not us APUG members but a wider populace who use film which is shrinking still.
EK have a history of goofs.

Jaf-Photo · Aug 22, 2014

jnanian said:
how is this a huge symbolic significance ?
its a film that probably didn't sell well enough to keep making
and they axed it. EK has been doing this since forever .. and it seems like business as usual.
i have no idea why this is so significant and symbolic? significant that they are paying attention to film sales and getting rid of things
that don't make enough profit? doesn't seem significant or symbolic to me ... just good business sense ..

To me it's obvious why it is of huge symbolic significance.

(1) Film is not safe in the hands of Kodak Alaris.

(2) Kodak Alaris makes no effort to promote their films before cancelling them.

(3) The cancelled film BW400CN was key to the recruitment of new film users.

(4) The loss of competing products is harmful to consumers in the long run.

Even if CN films are not that interesting to most apug users, they are hugely important to new film users. They make it possible for any kid to buy film locally, have it processed locally and to get usable scans with no effort.

Someone called CN film a gateway drug to film photography, and I agree with that in the best possible sense.

darkosaric · Aug 22, 2014

RattyMouse said:
Again, this film did NOT have to die. Ilford proves this every day.

Kodak failed, again, to find a market for their world class (and I mean this seriously; every account says this was a great product) film.

+1

Not only Ilford, when I see that impossible project is selling films at price of 20 for 8 pictures - and they are running out of stock often, so selling faster then producing new - this means only that Kodak is not competent. Let this Kodak dies already so that we can be over with, and concentrate on healthier and more intelligent companies.

Roger Cole · Aug 22, 2014

darkosaric said:
+1

Not only Ilford, when I see that impossible project is selling films at price of 20€ for 8 pictures - and they are running out of stock often, so selling faster then producing new - this means only that Kodak is not competent. Let this Kodak dies already so that we can be over with, and concentrate on healthier and more intelligent companies.

It doesn't prove a thing. Impossible film is a niche product made in tiny quantities for a tiny market so it has to sell for a high price and they can get it. Very, very different from 35mm and 120 or even conventional sheet film.

Sheesh, this is a film that was barely used, not widely liked, and that many people did not even realize was still made, for a market that pretty much died when the minilabs did.

I'd be more worried about KA if they DIDN'T discontinue this film. It would indicate something akin to, if not insanity, at least lack of any business intelligence whatsoever.

darkosaric · Aug 22, 2014

Roger Cole said:
It doesn't prove a thing. Impossible film is a niche product made in tiny quantities for a tiny market so it has to sell for a high price and they can get it. Very, very different from 35mm and 120 or even conventional sheet film.

Sheesh, this is a film that was barely used, not widely liked, and that many people did not even realize was still made, for a market that pretty much died when the minilabs did.

I'd be more worried about KA if they DIDN'T discontinue this film. It would indicate something akin to, if not insanity, at least lack of any business intelligence whatsoever.

Maybe, but lets look at another example: lomography - they are selling 35mm and 120 films and new cameras, and they are standing very good in the big market.
I think that Kodak could do better sales (and not discontinue the films) if they try harder, and adopt more to market. But more probable way will be slow agony, bankruptcy and total shutdown of all films soon.

pdeeh · Aug 22, 2014

Well it's finally happened: Film v. Digital threads have been superseded by a new technology: Film v. Kodak Alaris ...

Xmas · Aug 22, 2014

Jaf-Photo said:
To me it's obvious why it is of huge symbolic significance.
... snip...

Someone called CN film a gateway drug to film photography, and I agree with that in the best possible sense.

Hi Jaf-

I have altered your text

I normally carry a chromogenic mono in gbag just in case I need to do available darkness I don't mind the ISO 1600 signature.

But I have given them away to NOOBYs who have just bought a film camera of a street seller.

Normally you need to get (show) them (how) to load the film and close the door, ...

And download the free manual to smart phone and read it in coffee shop before they shoot any shots, the camera is typically a OM1n or K1000!

And tell them where a Minilab is...

People are magpies they buy shiny bright things...

Jaf-Photo · Aug 22, 2014

By the way, did you see that Kodak has launched a new micro 4/3 mirrorless digital camera?

It has average specs and competes against the established giants, Olympus and Panasonic.

I think it speaks volumes that Kodak is hitting the digital market with too little too late, while they are mishandling their films.

Kodak Alaris discontinues BW400CN film

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