Kodachrome in China?

cfclark · Jan 12, 2011

The gist of this thread, after skimming the entire thing, is...someone's going to build a steam locomotive to haul a load of Kodachrome from China? Did I read that right?

If it were economically viable to make and sell Kodachrome, it would have been done, or it would have continued to happen. I love shooting film, but I've never shot Kodachrome, and I've never, since the announcement of its discontinuation or the announcement that processing would end, spent any time lamenting that I didn't get to shoot it. It's a little sad that I won't have that option, but given that I never exercised the option, I guess that's my tough luck. I'm much more concerned that the options I do like to exercise seem to diminish as time goes on (no more 220 B&W film, for one). I think it would be more helpful to let Kodachrome go, keeping in mind that slide-film options are still available, and try to keep the films we like to use from slipping below the viability point (don't take my Tri-X away!), than to fantasize about Chinese Kodachrome knock-offs we probably wouldn't use anyway.

michaelbsc · Jan 12, 2011

cfclark said:
The gist of this thread, after skimming the entire thing, is...someone's going to build a steam locomotive to haul a load of Kodachrome from China? Did I read that right?

By George he's *GOT* it!

Photo Engineer · Jan 12, 2011

You need 2 machines. One for production and one for R&D. The R&D machine is for narrow width and short length coatings.

It will probably take 4 - 8 R&D people about 1 year to produce an acceptable narrow width coating, if they are lucky.

Oh, and don't forget the processing machines and custom chemicals that must be synthesized in reasonable quantity. Also don't forget that long term keeping tests must be made for quality assurance. If the Latent Image Keeping is so poor that the images go bad before you can process them, you are out of business!

There is a lot more to add.

PE

Photo Engineer · Jan 12, 2011

Holmburgers;

I have all of the dyes but one. I need Chicago Blue to finish off the set!

I'm really not rushing to get it, as I look forward. Why don't you do it? I've figured out the cost at the present price of Silver and I simply cannot afford to do it!

PE

michaelbsc · Jan 12, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
You need 2 machines. One for production and one for R&D. The R&D machine is for narrow width and short length coatings.

It will probably take 4 - 8 R&D people about 1 year to produce an acceptable narrow width coating, if they are lucky.

Oh, and don't forget the processing machines and custom chemicals that must be synthesized in reasonable quantity. Also don't forget that long term keeping tests must be made for quality assurance. If the Latent Image Keeping is so poor that the images go bad before you can process them, you are out of business!

There is a lot more to add.

PE

So your first few batches would be like The Impossible Project. Poor quality, washed out, and not very durable. Inadequate for commercial sales, so we'd have to make it in 120 and sell to the Holga crowd at prices which can recoup our costs?

MB

holmburgers · Jan 12, 2011

This is like discussing making a Mercedes from scratch, it's preposterous. It's just a bunch of hot air and blowing/sucking... like a dying fish in a hot air balloon!!!

Sorry, but I've heard the same things repeated a dozen times (a baker's dozen! or more) in these last couple weeks and frankly it's getting old. Kodachrome is gone, boohoo, boohoo, cry me a river of dimethylquadrazionine-3. (I made that up)

I'm only 25 and you guys are making me a curmudgeon!

edit: PE, I certainly would like to do it. It's just out of my league at the moment; but I'm working on my own projects, as humble as they may be. I mean to say that if people are serious about making emulsions, quit bitching about probably the most complicated emulsion to reproduce and do something that you can do! That's all. All in good spirit of course; I just had to vent my 5th fetzer valve.

Photo Engineer · Jan 12, 2011

michaelbsc said:
So your first few batches would be like TIP. Poor quality, washed out, and not very durable. Inadequate for commercial sales, so we'd have to make it in 120 and sell to the Holga crowd at prices which can recoup our costs?

MB

I have no idea what the quality would be like, but I assume a lot of scrap!

PE

holmburgers · Jan 12, 2011

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I spoke with him in October of '10 and he's still working on it. So there is hope....

michaelbsc · Jan 12, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
I assume a lot of scrap!

That's for the Holga market.

Worker 11811 · Jan 12, 2011

So... how much? $20 million? And, what? 5 years, more or less? That's not so bad!

Here, I'll write you out a check for $30 million just for good measure.
But you have to promise not to try to cash it until next Monday!

Photo Engineer · Jan 12, 2011

holmburgers said:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I spoke with him in October of '10 and he's still working on it. So there is hope....

I am aware of the work and I wish him all the best.

The things he discusses in that post are the least of his problems. There are many more to overcome. I hope he has all of his dopants and doctors down pat, and that he can get the NF633 that he needs to finish off things properly. Don't mind the code, he will recognize it!

PE

Diapositivo · Jan 12, 2011

Steve Smith said:
If you had enough money, you could get Kodak to make it for you.... or Ilford.

Steve.

I agree. If money was not a problem (because some Arab prince decides he wants to enter history by re-inventing Kodachrome) then the faster, safer and more logic thing to do would be going to Kodak and ask them to manufacture and package for you. That takes all the uncertainty out of the equation, gives the best quality since the first roll going to the market, allows maybe a "manufactured by Kodak" writing on the box, and avoids reinventing the wheel, a very complicated wheel.

So we can scrap all the other problem and only discuss this one: is there anywhere to be found money to revive Kodachrome?

My two cents: since the most ancient times, people know that very rich, and very old people can be, with some years work, a very, very reliable source of capital, sometimes huge amount of capital

(I am not signing this obviously)

Sirius Glass · Jan 12, 2011

Q.G. said:
Probably implied in the above somewhere, but it would need 1 hour processing, not more than 15 minutes from where we live.
And relatives, friends and neighbours willing to sit through boring slide-shows.

Good point and very well stated!

Ray Rogers · Jan 12, 2011

Could someone summarize the groups or individuals seriously interested in this God/Man fantasy?

jon falth · Jan 12, 2011

Rhetorically speaking,

If,

kodachrome was so good, and there are over one-hundred-and-ninety posts mourning the loss of the stuff...

then,

why didn't more people buy it, so kodak wouldn't have to quit making it...

surely, if it was that good, then china would have been black-marketing the stuff for years...

give china credit, where credit is due...

To be sure, china finds more value in delivering poorly produced cd's, dvd's, toys, drugs, foods, and other products that Americans will buy by the billions of dollars,

than in selling a few poorly made rolls of kodachrome film, more easily detectible and criticized for poor quality by a nation of discriminating users..

Steve Smith · Jan 13, 2011

jon falth said:
give china credit, where credit is due...

To be sure, china finds more value in delivering poorly produced cd's, dvd's, toys, drugs, foods, and other products that Americans will buy by the billions of dollars,

than in selling a few poorly made rolls of kodachrome film, more easily detectible and criticized for poor quality by a nation of discriminating users..

Indeed. China should be given credit for the huge amount of products which they make which are of good quality and which we buy and use every day without realising their origin rather than the relatively small percentage of poor products which get reported. China probably produces the same percentage of bad products as every other country.

Steve.

Photo Engineer · Jan 13, 2011

I have friends who are in the QC divisions of their companies importing a lot of goods from China. They tell me of the very high reject rate on these parts.

PE

michaelbsc · Jan 13, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
You need 2 machines. One for production and one for R&D. The R&D machine is for narrow width and short length coatings.

"For boutique production, a micro brewery of film so to speak"

For boutique production I don't think you need two lines. After all, there's not enough demand to support two lines. Microbreweries don't have two kettles.

Would it be expensive? You bet your sweet bippie. But wasn't there a comment that a roll in 1960 was equivalent to $74 in 2010 dollars? So if you can stay at about $65/roll you're still ahead of that.

One coating line for 18 in strips will let one slit 12 35mm strips or 7 120 strips with adequate edge guard bands.

I really doubt 8 folks working full time could have a master roll in one year. That seems a little aggressive. Perhaps two years.

With people complaining that film is going to $10/roll, this seems unsustainable.

railwayman3 · Jan 13, 2011

jon falth said:
Rhetorically speaking,

If,

then,

why didn't more people buy it, so kodak wouldn't have to quit making it...

Reading your wording carefully, perhaps I and others get mad because Kodak, and some of the more aggressive posters here, blame we guys, the customers, for "not buying the film".

My pocket dictionary defines a customer as "One who buys". So, how does a customer "not buy" something?

Your wording is much better....I'd agree with something like "there were too few customers buying Kodachrome" or "Kodachrome sold in too small quantities to be a viable product. Where the blame lies for this sad situation remains another matter.

(As you might guess, I like crosswords..... )

railwayman3 · Jan 13, 2011

jon falth said:
To be sure, china finds more value in delivering poorly produced cd's, dvd's, toys, drugs, foods, and other products that Americans will buy by the billions of dollars,

That's a fairly sweeping statement....if it were wholly true, maybe much blame is with the Western consumers themselves (not just Americans) who demand more and more products at lower and lower bargain prices which, in the long run, will be unsustainable.

I'm writing this on a Chinese-made laptop, printer and peripherals, in my room is also a flat-screen tv, DVD recorder, and a top-end hi-fi set-up, all Made inChina. But I chose them for design, spec, and build quality, not low price,
and I have no problems.

Even if I'd wanted, I doubt that I could find similar products made in the UK or the US.

Q.G. · Jan 13, 2011

railwayman3 said:
Reading your wording carefully, perhaps I and others get mad because Kodak, and some of the more aggressive posters here, blame we guys, the customers, for "not buying the film".

My pocket dictionary defines a customer as "One who buys". So, how does a customer "not buy" something?

By buying something else.

Q.G. · Jan 13, 2011

railwayman3 said:
Even if I'd wanted, I doubt that I could find similar products made in the UK or the US.

They probably are products formerly made in the UK or the US, or EU.

railwayman3 · Jan 13, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
I have friends who are in the QC divisions of their companies importing a lot of goods from China. They tell me of the very high reject rate on these parts.

PE

Not doubting what you say.

Are the Chinese suppliers responsive to feedback, and is the quality improving with time?

Not making any point, just interested, having regard to the similar position when Japan started exporting goods in any quantity in the 50's and 60's. At first "Made in Japan" largely denoted cheap inferior products ("Japc**p" ) , but manufacturers listened to feedback and gradually the scene changed completely.

IMVHO, this might not happen as quickly with China...could be that the Japanese manufacturers back then had a longer-term ambition and goal to "be the best", whereas the present outlook in the newer far-East countries may be more orientated to maximising short-term returns and profits.

railwayman3 · Jan 13, 2011

Q.G. said:
By buying something else.

But then he is no longer a "customer" for the original item.

If I don't buy any of Kodak's products, I'm not a Kodak customer.

railwayman3 · Jan 13, 2011

Q.G. said:
They probably are products formerly made in the UK or the US, or EU.

Absolutely....in my Dad's time the equivalent products would have been made here in the UK, or possibly imported from Europe. The question of why this change has happened could fill dozens of books and journals....

Kodachrome in China?

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