Kodachrome in China?

[Q.G.]

But then he is no longer a "customer" for the original item.

Of course not, no. But a customer still.

If I don't buy any of Kodak's products, I'm not a Kodak customer.

Indeed. But what of it?
The thing is that there were too few Kodachrome buyers among Kodak's customers.

If someone reintroduced Kodachrome, there still will be too few Kodachrome buyers among his or her customers. Or if that new-Kodachrome would be all he/she would be selling, he/she would have no customers.
The customers however will still be out there, buying something else.

 

[Q.G.]

Absolutely....in my Dad's time the equivalent products would have been made here in the UK, or possibly imported from Europe. The question of why this change has happened could fill dozens of books and journals....

They would be extremely short books though: the production of all of those items moved to China, because manufacturing them there is/was dirt cheap.
End of chapter. And of book.

 

[railwayman3]

They would be extremely short books though: the production of all of those items moved to China, because manufacturing them there is/was dirt cheap.
End of chapter. And of book.

But "dirt-cheap" is only the quick answer. Why the US/EU/UK could no longer compete in price (and arguably...perhaps more with Japan, but only in some cases.....on quality, design, innovation and consumers' expectations) could add a few chapters.

And discussion of the social and political trends and changes behind this (which could easily date back to the WW1 , or even to the Industrial Revolution) would fill the other books.

 

[railwayman3]

Of course not, no. But a customer still.



Indeed. But what of it?
The thing is that there were too few Kodachrome buyers among Kodak's customers.

Not quite....but I'll accept "The thing is that there were too few Kodachrome buyers among film consumers".

I'll also grant that E6 initially gave many advantages, quick processing in local labs or by the user, and a variety of speeds (though the faster Ektachromes have vanished) and choices of contrast and color rendering (e.g. Velvia, etc.).

At the risk of being boring, though, it's still back to marketing, even Fuji stole a lot of Kodak's slide market when they first came into the arena, with, arguably, inferior products (or, maybe, "less good", for the time) riding on a lot of Kodak's original R & D plus some savvy marketing.

 

[Photo Engineer]

"For boutique production, a micro brewery of film so to speak"

For boutique production I don't think you need two lines. After all, there's not enough demand to support two lines. Microbreweries don't have two kettles.

Would it be expensive? You bet your sweet bippie. But wasn't there a comment that a roll in 1960 was equivalent to $74 in 2010 dollars? So if you can stay at about $65/roll you're still ahead of that.

One coating line for 18 in strips will let one slit 12 35mm strips or 7 120 strips with adequate edge guard bands.

I really doubt 8 folks working full time could have a master roll in one year. That seems a little aggressive. Perhaps two years.

With people complaining that film is going to $10/roll, this seems unsustainable.

You cannot tie up the production machine to make test coatings!

And, microbreweries do not make full size batches of experiments.

The price of the film I referred to was $10 / roll, processing included in South East Asia. I made it clear that US prices were substantially lower.

BTW, I once attended a talk by the head of the Kodak camera plant and he said that Kodak could (at that time - in the 80s) make lenses and cameras better than anyone in the world, but no one except the government could afford them. His evidence were the special cameras used for space work at the time (not the Hasselblads used for "snapshots") such as space reconnaissance.

PE

 

[railwayman3]

BTW, I once attended a talk by the head of the Kodak camera plant and he said that Kodak could (at that time - in the 80s) make lenses and cameras better than anyone in the world, but no one except the government could afford them. His evidence were the special cameras used for space work at the time (not the Hasselblads used for "snapshots") such as space reconnaissance.

PE

I can believe that....I still have some Kodak brochures which my Dad saved at the time of the Moon landings which show something of the special equipment and films involved.

A bit like Ross, TTH and Dallmayer in the UK...amazing quality cameras and lenses, but very expensive for ordinary users. During and after WW2 their production was diverted to the war effort. After the war they continued to manufacture for the government, but when these orders dried up around the 1950's they had no modern consumer products in the pipeline and were either taken-over or closed.

 

[Q.G.]

Not quite....but I'll accept "The thing is that there were too few Kodachrome buyers among film consumers".

Nah...
There were too few Kodachrome buyers among Kodak's customers is far better, much more to the point.

I'll also grant that E6 initially gave many advantages, quick processing in local labs or by the user, and a variety of speeds (though the faster Ektachromes have vanished) and choices of contrast and color rendering (e.g. Velvia, etc.).

And as good as, and even better 'quality'.

Kodachrome 64, for instance, wasn't a competitive product compared to Eltachrome 64. And if some people were still in doubt, that was removed entirely, and with it any remaining reason why K64 should be, after Ektachrome 100 (EPN) appeared.
Kodachrome 25 held up pretty well, but apparently people liked the speed of 64 better? Why else would it disappear before K64?
Kodachrome died when K25 was discontinued. No later.

At the risk of being boring, though, it's still back to marketing, even Fuji stole a lot of Kodak's slide market when they first came into the arena, with, arguably, inferior products (or, maybe, "less good", for the time) riding on a lot of Kodak's original R & D plus some savvy marketing.

Yes, and no.
Yes: Kodak's marketing strategy should have been to drop Kodachrome sooner, pointing out that if slide film users wanted films as fine or better than those offered by the competition, they needn't look further than their Ektachrome range.
No: all too often people confuse marketing with magic. When people don't want a product, they don't want it. The powers of marketing are limited, and could not have kept Kodachrome alive.
Why! we have to wait and see if any film will survive the almost complete transition to the Digido! Doesn't look good.

 

[michaelbsc]

You cannot tie up the production machine to make test coatings!

I can't believe one could generate enough product demand to keep a separate production machine going, even the dinky size line I spoke about. So you may as well use the same line for testing and production. After all, in a boutique operation your researchers are also the operators. So if they're making product, they're not doing any research anyway.

Setting up a full blown automated factory would cost $100-200 million.

And, microbreweries do not make full size batches of experiments.

True, so you make short runs for experiments. Think boutique here, not economy of scale.

The price of the film I referred to was $10 / roll, processing included in South East Asia. I made it clear that US prices were substantially lower.

Well, I didn't catch that the first time around. I seriously doubt you could ever hit that target price point in a boutique operation.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kodachrome 25 died because it could not be produced on the new machine without excessive waste and the market would not support the R&D to fix the problem, so it would have had to be sold at a loss due to the waste. TerryM mentioned this earlier.

PE

 

[Q.G.]

Kodachrome 25 died because it could not be produced on the new machine without excessive waste and the market would not support the R&D to fix the problem, so it would have had to be sold at a loss due to the waste. TerryM mentioned this earlier.

PE

But K64 could. So the market was favouring the 64 type?

 

[michaelbsc]

But K64 could. So the market was favouring the 64 type?

Exactly. And when TerryM asked for our votes, I voted for 125.

 

[Photo Engineer]

IDK the market favorite. All I know is that sales began declining in the late 80s after E6 caught on. It really dropped for all films in the Kodachrome family after Fuji introduced their E6 line, but things faltered when Fuji had some production problems and E6 Fujichrome looked pretty bad for a while. Then they fixed it in about 1991 and things continued downward again for the Kodachromes. All slide films began a decline in about 2000 (Kodak and Fuji E6 products). Slide films now represent a very tiny fraction of overall Kodak sales.

PE

 

[railwayman3]

Nah...


And as good as, and even better 'quality'.


Why! we have to wait and see if any film will survive the almost complete transition to the Digido! Doesn't look good.

Well, we could happily discuss sematics forever, it's good fun.

But, how do you define"better "quality" in relation to photography?

As an example, my dentist uses a digital camera to record his work on patents. He tells me that, at dental school about 20 years ago all records and teaching photographs were on Kodachrome. Clearly one would hardly expect that they he or they would try to use something like Calotype.

Yet lots of "alternative process" users on APUG and elsewhere still use Calotype or similar for its better "quality" in giving the artistic effects which they wish to produce in their work.

In the first case, maximum sharpness, color accuracy and convenience are needed...in the other, the aim is artistic results from the individual characteristics and properties of the medium, even at the cost of a lot more time and effort. Which is the better "quality", and is one process "as good as the other"?

Without defining the purpose, there isn't an answer.

 

[Q.G.]

Without defining the purpose, there isn't an answer.

Definitions are for people who don't know anything.
Considering the company we're in, the definition is superfluous, the meaning to be considered known and understood.

 

[railwayman3]

Definitions are for people who don't know anything.
Considering the company we're in, the definition is superfluous, the meaning to be considered known and understood.

You and I are not even on the same wavelength, guess we can only agree to differ. As least I have an open mind, so I'll go onto a more receptive forum.

 

[r-s]

Not doubting what you say.

Are the Chinese suppliers responsive to feedback, and is the quality improving with time?

Not making any point, just interested, having regard to the similar position when Japan started exporting goods in any quantity in the 50's and 60's. At first "Made in Japan" largely denoted cheap inferior products ("Japc**p" ) , but manufacturers listened to feedback and gradually the scene changed completely.

IMVHO, this might not happen as quickly with China...could be that the Japanese manufacturers back then had a longer-term ambition and goal to "be the best", whereas the present outlook in the newer far-East countries may be more orientated to maximising short-term returns and profits.

One word: Deming.

Sadly, I doubt modern day China is any more receptive to his ideas than "The West" was back when he took his message to Japan (where he was gladly received).

 

[Aurum]

An observation.

In my experience there are two types of business operators, and they range from the single business person operating a business all the way up to a big corporation.

The first is the guy who is in it for the long haul. He wants to do a good job, and be recognised as being good. He sees value in this from the following.
1) He gets recognised as being a good reliable type
2) He gets personal recommendations (The best kind of advertising as it costs nothing, and garners no suspicion)
3) His customers if they are smart realise that going with the guy who delivers what he promises is so much less hassle You don't have to spend a fortune checking what he does, and if it is in a business to business context you're not having to worry about apologising on his behalf to your customers.

This is the mentality I want to work with. Quality is key. Guess which once emergent nation took this path.

Then there is the second type.
He's the guy who thinks ripping people off is great. He congratulates himself and his smarmy mates that he's so great that he screwed the other guy. He doesn't care about repeat business, as there are always more fish in the sea, and he'll be rich and retired before some other poor sod has to clean up his mess. He's usually found in such arenas as Law, Used car lots, estate agencies, and also quite often in the manufacturing industry.
When manufacturing he will promise the earth, and try to kill the competition by price gouging. His quality is appalling with a high reject rate. If a customer dares complain, he will lie, cheat and bluff his way out of it.

Guess which emergent nation this applies to.

Also guess what they teach brainless MBA's is a good business plan.

And looking at the state the western world economies are in now, guess what the newly minted MBA's have been doing over the past few years.

(Unfortunately I have to deal with a lot of number twos in my job)

 

[Sirius Glass]

China probably produces the same percentage of bad products as every other country.

Is this based on fact or conjecture? Can you cite an article in a respected publication or is this based on what you ate for breakfast?

 

[msa]

Having spent a lot of time in microbreweries ... if you went in during the week, for lunch, you'd have a chance to talk to the brewmaster in many cases.

They may only have one production vessel, but he's usually got a few test batches going in 5 gal carboys in their back room or basement.

 

[Photo Engineer]

And if you were taking the Kodak tour around lunchtime about a dozen Photo Engineers walked through the lobby and past the visitors and not one person in the crowds ever asked any of us a question. But they did go through the employees store to pick up bargain film.

PE

 

[Ray Rogers]

Are the Chinese suppliers responsive to feedback, and is the quality improving with time?

Not making any point, just interested, having regard to the similar position when Japan started exporting goods in any quantity in the 50's and 60's. At first "Made in Japan" largely denoted cheap inferior products ("Japc**p" ) , but manufacturers listened to feedback and gradually the scene changed completely.

IMVHO, this might not happen as quickly with China...could be that the Japanese manufacturers back then had a longer-term ambition and goal to "be the best", whereas the present outlook in the newer far-East countries may be more orientated to maximising short-term returns and profits.

Yes. I think so.
The Chinese I met on the mainland struck me as extreamly egar to make money... more so than to excell... this is personal experience.

There is a Chinese saying which IIRC means essentially, "Don't waste your time talking to a poor man!" and my experience led me to think the Chinese are more capitalistic than the most red-blooded American you might drag out of the woodwork... almost "Ferengi" like!

Maybe it is cultural, maybe it is a backlash from years of strict govenment controll, IDK...

OTOH,

The Japanese clearly have a perfectionist aspect to their psyche, even if it is subject to Time & Place more so than one might imagine.

Of course, it is perhaps impossible to sum up an entire race of people in a few lines;
don't we all have dirty underware that are best left unseen?

 

[Photo Engineer]

How about this summary Ray?

Toyota!

PE

 

[michaelbsc]

And if you were taking the Kodak tour around lunchtime about a dozen Photo Engineers walked through the lobby and past the visitors and not one person in the crowds ever asked any of us a question.

I can believe that, but I can't understand it.

Some years ago the local IEEE chapter had a rash of "plant tours" for the meeting schedule. After just a few tours the others used to dread it if I said I was going because I'd ask scores of questions about the process, regardless of whether it was an electronics plant, a rubber plant, a this plant, a that plant, or an other plant.

But the other dolts on the tour were there for the crummy chicken dinner. Blew my mind every time. How can you *NOT* be curious and work in a technical field?

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have to admit that the "society" tours got a lot of questions but the regular plant tours appeared to get none or very few.

PE

 

[accozzaglia]

To the party earlier in this discussion weighing the complexities of building a steam locomotive from scratch versus a coating run of Kodachrome, here's a more fundamental idea:

instead of a steam locomotive, re-create an old, smaller coating machine from scratch, either referring to blueprints, or re-invent the wheel. It should be fun for the whole tinkering family for many years to come.