Issues with the E6 development

[mshchem]

I've used 1.5 Adox C-Tec kits so far, the first one for 9 120 films (same area as a 36 exposure 35mm film) and half (500ml) of the second one for 5 films, in all case in a Paterson tank holding 500ml and the films processed one by one.

I've concluded that you can definitely process 5 films in 500ml of solution without any obviously visible degradation of the colours of the processed film (there has got to be some degradation, but I can't see it!). So 3 films in 350ml should be OK.

The only caveat is that I process all my films in a batch of solution over 2-3 days (i.e. 5 films, one by one, in 500ml in 2-3 days) ... I don't let the working solutions stand around for more than 3 days.

Good technique! You're not letting the developer sit around and oxidize, Paterson tanks and the relatively gentle agitation doesn't aerate the developer like a Jobo. If Adox is using the same recipe as Tetenal this stuff will store (within reason) as a concentrate. The little Adox kits look great!

 

[ChrisGalway]

Good technique! You're not letting the developer sit around and oxidize, Paterson tanks and the relatively gentle agitation doesn't aerate the developer like a Jobo. If Adox is using the same recipe as Tetenal this stuff will store (within reason) as a concentrate. The little Adox kits look great!

Adox are quoting 24 weeks shelf life for opened concentrate (all baths). I'm unlikely to ever wait that long ... seems too long for my liking. I'll use the remaining half of the kit in about 3 weeks time, i.e. around 5 weeks after I made up the initial batch.

Samu in Post 24 suggests using the FD only twice, and obviously the fewer times you re-use the solutions the better, but to me even 5 films in 500ml (Adox say up to 6) is fine, the fifth film comes out as good as the first, to my eye. Certainly there is no obvious visual degradation ... of course there has to be some, and perhaps a really critical eye could detect it.

 

[Samu]

Samu in Post 24 suggests using the FD only twice, and obviously the fewer times you re-use the solutions the better, but to me even 5 films in 500ml (Adox say up to 6) is fine, the fifth film comes out as good as the first, to my eye. Certainly there is no obvious visual degradation ... of course there has to be some, and perhaps a really critical eye could detect it.

Save the fully exposed leaders of the films from the first batch, and compare them with those in the fifth batch. You will see much more density in those developed with a developer used for many times. If the FD is badly oxidized, the colors wll also start ti change. I admit my criteria for a good slide is quite high. I make mine primarily for projection, which means there are nothing you can do to edit them after developing.

 

[ChrisGalway]

Save the fully exposed leaders of the films from the first batch, and compare them with those in the fifth batch. You will see much more density in those developed with a developer used for many times. If the FD is badly oxidized, the colors wll also start ti change. I admit my criteria for a good slide is quite high. I make mine primarily for projection, which means there are nothing you can do to edit them after developing.

Excellent suggestion ... the problem for me in that I use 120 roll film, no exposed leaders!

I would be interested if someone who does 35mm could follow Samu's suggestion and post the results.

 

[ujjwal]

I've used 1.5 Adox C-Tec kits so far, the first one for 9 120 films (same area as a 36 exposure 35mm film) and half (500ml) of the second one for 5 films, in all case in a Paterson tank holding 500ml and the films processed one by one.

I've concluded that you can definitely process 5 films in 500ml of solution without any obviously visible degradation of the colours of the processed film (there has got to be some degradation, but I can't see it!). So 3 films in 350ml should be OK.

The only caveat is that I process all my films in a batch of solution over 2-3 days (i.e. 5 films, one by one, in 500ml in 2-3 days) ... I don't let the working solutions stand around for more than 3 days.

oh, this is super useful tip, Thanks Chris.

 

[ujjwal]

Save the fully exposed leaders of the films from the first batch, and compare them with those in the fifth batch. You will see much more density in those developed with a developer used for many times. If the FD is badly oxidized, the colors wll also start ti change. I admit my criteria for a good slide is quite high. I make mine primarily for projection, which means there are nothing you can do to edit them after developing.

oh super tip,
I am also making slides for projection, so that s why worried about it.

 

[ujjwal]

The main issue with reusing E6 chemistry is FD dying out. All the other steps go until completion, and there seems to be quite lot of margin for error in these. I am no specialist with the 3-bath though, but as far as I know, this ADOX kit is identical to Tetenal's last press kit, Colortec. At least years ago, the FD in these kits was pretty standard.

My advice, based on standard E6 is that for acceptable results, the FD can be used twice. Using it more will show in results. Also, if reusing the solution, it should be done quite quickly after using the FD for the first time - within a week or so. Unused, it will keep for a few months in full bottles, but will degrade fast after the first use. For PERFECT results, it is one shot only.

First thing you will notice, when the first developer degrades, are too dark highlights. You can see this easily if you compare the fully exposed leaders of the films developed in fresh and reused developer. When the FD will exhaust more, there will be problems with color balance. In blix kits, the bleach fix will also degrade quickly. This is not an issue in the standard process, where the problems are unlikely with anything except the FD, and possibly with oxidized REV, but in most cases, the FD will be long dead before there will be any issues with other chemicals. AND DO NOT LET ANY STABILIZER OR FINAL RINSE GET IN THE FIRST DEVELOPER! It will destroy it.

so i did use the 350 ml and you are right the FD after the third roll really looked dead.
so for the neXt roll i miXed a new batch.

The rolls that I developed turned out quite alright I think.

But yeah 3 rolls done not that far apart, worked for me.

Afraid of pushing it too much.

Also Provia colours seem so much better than Ektachrome.
hehe

cheers
u.

 

[ujjwal]

As far as I know, Fuji puts a little Surfactant in the first developer. If I'm not mistaken, ORWO had a similar practice 30 years ago.
I wonder if there's some quick and easy imitation of a regenerator that can be made. A little hydroquinone/phenidone and maybe something to slightly adjust the pH?

oh wow, i really doNT understand this process properly.
Would be cool to eXplore this.

thanks
u.

 

[ujjwal]

I've used 1.5 Adox C-Tec kits so far, the first one for 9 120 films (same area as a 36 exposure 35mm film) and half (500ml) of the second one for 5 films, in all case in a Paterson tank holding 500ml and the films processed one by one.

I've concluded that you can definitely process 5 films in 500ml of solution without any obviously visible degradation of the colours of the processed film (there has got to be some degradation, but I can't see it!). So 3 films in 350ml should be OK.

The only caveat is that I process all my films in a batch of solution over 2-3 days (i.e. 5 films, one by one, in 500ml in 2-3 days) ... I don't let the working solutions stand around for more than 3 days.

Can I ask you, you are doing one film at a time na?
So basically making a 500 ml batch and using it 5 times?
My thinking was to make lesser - 350 ml and then use it 3 times.
But maybe it’s smarter to make 500 ml and use it more number of times?

Also in miXing chemicals, how much difference would it make if I dilute it a bit more with water.
Like my thinking is to make 333 ml chemicals as prescribed and then add 17 ml of water more.
This is just to be able to make 3 batches of chemicals with a one liter kit.

thanks for any advice,
ujjwal.

 

[ChrisGalway]

Can I ask you, you are doing one film at a time na?
So basically making a 500 ml batch and using it 5 times?
My thinking was to make lesser - 350 ml and then use it 3 times.
But maybe it’s smarter to make 500 ml and use it more number of times?

Also in miXing chemicals, how much difference would it make if I dilute it a bit more with water.
Like my thinking is to make 333 ml chemicals as prescribed and then add 17 ml of water more.
This is just to be able to make 3 batches of chemicals with a one liter kit.

thanks for any advice,
ujjwal.

So basically making a 500 ml batch and using it 5 times?

Yes, I'm processing 120 film (similar area as 35mm 36-exposure film) in a Paterson tank, so I need to use 500ml of solution to immerse the film completely. And yes, one film at a time. I like to do one film at a time ... I typically take several rolls on a photo-trip, and process them in order of taking and each one is marked "normal", "push 1 stop" etc. So if the first film turns out to be slightly dark, and I can adjust the first dev time so the second one is better, and so on. In reality, I've processed so many in the past few years, they are nearly all spot on for exposure/1st Dev time.

I'm sure you can get away with splitting the 1 litre kit into 3 lots of 333ml but actually make up 350ml each time ... just add 15 sec to the 1st dev time? In fact, in the first Adox kit I used, there was MORE than 200ml in each of the stock bottles ... perhaps 210ml or so ... you may get away with no dilution at all! I'm halfway through my second kit, so I'll find out in a couple of weeks if this kit also has >200ml in each stock bottle.

Good luck! I remember that the very first roll I processed (5 years ago) was definitely too dark ... too short 1st Dev time, I followed the 6min15sec instructions ... but since then I've never really had any result that's been unacceptably dark or light.

 

[ujjwal]

So basically making a 500 ml batch and using it 5 times?

Yes, I'm processing 120 film (similar area as 35mm 36-exposure film) in a Paterson tank, so I need to use 500ml of solution to immerse the film completely. And yes, one film at a time. I like to do one film at a time ... I typically take several rolls on a photo-trip, and process them in order of taking and each one is marked "normal", "push 1 stop" etc. So if the first film turns out to be slightly dark, and I can adjust the first dev time so the second one is better, and so on. In reality, I've processed so many in the past few years, they are nearly all spot on for exposure/1st Dev time.

I'm sure you can get away with splitting the 1 litre kit into 3 lots of 333ml but actually make up 350ml each time ... just add 15 sec to the 1st dev time? In fact, in the first Adox kit I used, there was MORE than 200ml in each of the stock bottles ... perhaps 210ml or so ... you may get away with no dilution at all! I'm halfway through my second kit, so I'll find out in a couple of weeks if this kit also has >200ml in each stock bottle.

Good luck! I remember that the very first roll I processed (5 years ago) was definitely too dark ... too short 1st Dev time, I followed the 6min15sec instructions ... but since then I've never really had any result that's been unacceptably dark or light.

Thanks

 

[ujjwal]

Does anybody has eXperience with Unicolor E6 kit?
That s the only one I seem to be able to source in India and somehow since I haven’t used it, and not finding much online, am quite sceptical of it.
But maybe I just don’t know.

From what I have gathered - it doesn’t have a stabiliser. Could I use another stabiliser?

 

[koraks]

Could I use another stabiliser?

You could use plain old formalin/formaldehyde. Look up the safety precautions when doing so if you're not familiar with this, although I'd add that for typical home use, the amounts you'd be working with are not much of a concern.
I've not been able to find the technical data for the Unicolor kit, but in other kits, the stabilizer is often part of an earlier processing step, so no separate stabilizer may be needed. IDK if this applies to this particular kit.
I assume you're aware of the differences between stabilizers, final rinses etc. If not, please read this: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/the-definitive-word-i-hope-on-color-stabilzers.89149

 

[ChrisGalway]

Can I ask you, you are doing one film at a time na?
So basically making a 500 ml batch and using it 5 times?
My thinking was to make lesser - 350 ml and then use it 3 times.
But maybe it’s smarter to make 500 ml and use it more number of times?

Also in miXing chemicals, how much difference would it make if I dilute it a bit more with water.
Like my thinking is to make 333 ml chemicals as prescribed and then add 17 ml of water more.
This is just to be able to make 3 batches of chemicals with a one liter kit.

thanks for any advice,
ujjwal.

Just to add to my response #35 above ... I've now used two one-litre Adox E6 kits, each time splitting the kit in half to make 500ml of working solution. It seems that the "200ml" stock bottles actually contain closer to 210ml, so your suggestion of making up three lots of 350ml working solution (for 35mm films in a Paterson tank) seems fine.

I'm very pleased with the results from the Adox E6 kit, but as I want to support Bellini as well, my next kit will be the 6-7 bath Bellini one. I'll alternate the two kits for the foreseeable future .... we are spoilt for choice. I wish we had a better choice of films, it seems Fujifilm's already-poor supply is getting worse!

 

[ujjwal]

Just to add to my response #35 above ... I've now used two one-litre Adox E6 kits, each time splitting the kit in half to make 500ml of working solution. It seems that the "200ml" stock bottles actually contain closer to 210ml, so your suggestion of making up three lots of 350ml working solution (for 35mm films in a Paterson tank) seems fine.

I'm very pleased with the results from the Adox E6 kit, but as I want to support Bellini as well, my next kit will be the 6-7 bath Bellini one. I'll alternate the two kits for the foreseeable future .... we are spoilt for choice. I wish we had a better choice of films, it seems Fujifilm's already-poor supply is getting worse!

Yes, the adoX kit -350 ml miXes worked out for me. But cool that you are trying out the Bellini kit - that sounds just too complicated to me. Too many eXtra steps na.

But what I am to say - I am now in India on this project, and wanted to develop here - and unable to source Adox or Bellini here. In fact the only thing that I am able to source is UniColor. No clue about that, but let's see how it goes.

 

[ChrisGalway]

Yes, the adoX kit -350 ml miXes worked out for me. But cool that you are trying out the Bellini kit - that sounds just too complicated to me. Too many eXtra steps na.

The Bellini kit does have extra steps but in some ways is actually easier:

(i) After the first wash between 1st Dev and Reversal bath, there are NO MORE WASHES until the final wash after the Fixer. Since my washes for both kits are multiple changes of water from a reservoir at 38deg, the fewer washes of the Bellini kit are quite convenient.

(ii) You can open the tank during the reversal bath with the Bellini kit (but not until the Blix for the Adox kit), and I find this convenient as the lid on my Paterson tank never seals perfectly so there are drips when I inversion-agitate. With an open tank, you just squish the spiral up and down to agitate, so much easier.

So the complexity of Adox 3/4 bath v Bellini 6/7 bath is a matter of swings-and roundabouts ... each has its features and I would say they are both easy to carry out.

 

[ujjwal]

The Bellini kit does have extra steps but in some ways is actually easier:

(i) After the first wash between 1st Dev and Reversal bath, there are NO MORE WASHES until the final wash after the Fixer. Since my washes for both kits are multiple changes of water from a reservoir at 38deg, the fewer washes of the Bellini kit are quite convenient.

(ii) You can open the tank during the reversal bath with the Bellini kit (but not until the Blix for the Adox kit), and I find this convenient as the lid on my Paterson tank never seals perfectly so there are drips when I inversion-agitate. With an open tank, you just squish the spiral up and down to agitate, so much easier.

So the complexity of Adox 3/4 bath v Bellini 6/7 bath is a matter of swings-and roundabouts ... each has its features and I would say they are both easy to carry out.

Oh cool, thanks. I should try this out!!!

 

[Samu]

The Bellini kit does have extra steps but in some ways is actually easier:

(i) After the first wash between 1st Dev and Reversal bath, there are NO MORE WASHES until the final wash after the Fixer. Since my washes for both kits are multiple changes of water from a reservoir at 38deg, the fewer washes of the Bellini kit are quite convenient.

(ii) You can open the tank during the reversal bath with the Bellini kit (but not until the Blix for the Adox kit), and I find this convenient as the lid on my Paterson tank never seals perfectly so there are drips when I inversion-agitate. With an open tank, you just squish the spiral up and down to agitate, so much easier.

So the complexity of Adox 3/4 bath v Bellini 6/7 bath is a matter of swings-and roundabouts ... each has its features and I would say they are both easy to carry out.

I normally wash E6 after bleaching for 2 minutes. It is by no means mandatory though. In machines, the film will be squeegeed between these steps, and the carryover of bleach into fixer is not that big as it is when developing in tanks. But it is true you can´t add wash between other stops in this process. Reversal and conditioner (now officially pre bleach) work when immersed in film, which will come into contact with the next bath, CD and BL. I fainty remember this was also suggested in some older Kodak documents for rotary and tank developing pf E6 films, but I can´t recall which document it was in. Also, I usually prewash all color films for more constant temperature, and for saving time compared to preheating tanks and reels dry. I have had no adverse effects from this. Also, I do use acetic acid stop bath in C-41, but this should never be added ro E6, reason being the necessity of adjusting the FD time accordingly. When stop bath was changed to water wash in the official E6 process, the FD was also made slightly less active to compensate with this.

What you say about opening the tank, this is a very big advantage if you are developing movie films in LOMO tanks or similar.

 

[MattKing]

Unicolor would mean that it comes from the same company that is now licensed to manufacture Kodak branded photo chemicals, after a long history of manufacturing and marketing many other brands, including Unicolor.
So that may bode well for that kit.

 

[ujjwal]

Okay so I have now developed several films, but this batch has been particularly difficult.
Using the AdoX kit, I miXed 500 ml and now in the siXth roll - an ektachrome 100D - it really fucked up. Am attaching a couple of photos. Is it that the First developer is gone? I had miXed the chemicals only day before. The temperature was also accurate. Any help/advice will be deeply appreciated…

 

[ChrisGalway]

Okay so I have now developed several films, but this batch has been particularly difficult.
Using the AdoX kit, I miXed 500 ml and now in the siXth roll - an ektachrome 100D - it really fucked up. Am attaching a couple of photos. Is it that the First developer is gone? I had miXed the chemicals only day before. The temperature was also accurate.

Can you please give more detail? You said the "sixth roll", but you made up 500ml of the solutions just "one day before" ... does that mean the previous 5 films, which you must have processed within 24 hours, were OK? And what tank etc are you using, Patterson, Jobo ...?

I have never had a problem with the Adox E6 kit ... although I only processed 4-5 films per 500ml, never a sixth, but I can't imagine that the solutions just die in a few hours for the sixth film.

PS Many sympathies, it must have been terrible to open the tank and see this!

 

[ujjwal]

So I am using a patterson single tank. and yes, the previous roll I did came out very good. THe previous roll was a provia 100. So the earlier ektachrome that I did also came out a bit strange. I had been adding a 15-20 seconds eXtra to FD time (from recommended times by adoX), as I was afraid that my dilution was off by a few ml s. The previous ektachrome (the fourth roll of the lot) came out darker and higher contrast (higher than ektachrome typical high contrast) so in this roll (the siXth roll) I stuck to adoX recommended timings.

And yes, this is terrible to see, the worst possible way to end the day really. Like the day was going well, and this!!!! AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!

 

[loccdor]

Are you sure it's not from film expiration? I've seen similar from very old slide I've tried to process.

 

[ujjwal]

oh, i didn’t think about that….
as far as i know its not eXpired… i get these hand rolled films and am not sure about their eXpiry.
Even if it were eXpired, it shouldnt be eXpired for very long.

 

[Spektrum]

The expiration date is one thing, but another is how the slide film was stored. I'm reminded of a story my friend told me about, who in late spring put an unopened box of slide film in the glove compartment of his car. He forgot about it for two months, and in the meantime, the hot weather arrived. He remembered the slide film and tried to use it, but even though the expiration date wasn't for another two years, the film was already completely useless.