Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

[Cholentpot]

And they'll tire of it in no time at all. It's just a game.

I can't even stand digital slide shows for that matter...I would rather be in charge of how long I look at something, whether to linger or skip or go back. And putting zooms or moves on a still image (ala Ken Burns) irks me too. I'll decide if something merits a closer look or if I want to take in the entire image without annoying actions added. Oh, yeah, and keep music out of the whole deal. Make a movie/video if you want all that shit.

Slide show is hard coded in me as a good thing. Teacher pulls out projector and cassette and it's naptime. Worst thing of the late 90's was the switch to power point.

 

[Dwight Anderson]

What bunch of grumpy old men. If young people are enjoying shooting film and making it viable for film manufacturers to continue offering it, I say don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I recently was pointed to a local camera group by my 32 yo daughter who still shoots film. They meet at local breweries once a month and nerd out over their recent finds. Although digital cameras are welcome, every one of the twenty attendees had a film camera with them. About half 35mm and half medium format. Most of them are younger than forty. A group photo was taken by a 4x5 camera and shows some dedicated film shooters.



Oh, and you can still buy a Hickory shaft driver. https://louisvillegolf.com/products/wilsonian-driver

 

[MattKing]

While I'm not young, I'm also usually not particularly grumpy.
With respect to those who talk about the LP analogy, the most important part of that is that the medium has survived and is showing modest but meaningful new life despite the virtual disappearance of the infrastructure that once made it paramount.
There is a newer, much smaller but newly energetic infrastructure for LPs that is arising.
The possibility of the same thing for film is the hopeful part.

 

[Agulliver]

What manufacturers were those? The ones making the tapes, I mean. I only know of a couple manufacturers right now, which would be Recording The Masters, National Audio, and I believe ATR Magnetics. Were those the three?

NAC was one, RTM sent me pre-production samples of their improved C90, and Panggung as they were restarting production after a couple of years mothballing their machinery.

The LP analogy is really just to show that in the right circumstances, something which was written off as dead can come back into the mainstream. FIlm certainly isn't there yet, but if the upswing continues it could be. What is of no help to anyone in these forums is being a grumpy old fart, saying film is dead and that any upsurge in interest is going to be reversed soon....because presumably one has read it in one's tea leaves.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

It's more than wishful thinking, backed up by the data Henning has given us here in these very pages year on year. Backed up by what Ilford and Kodak repeatedly say...if you listen. Backed up by what the owners and staff in camera shops say.

We aren't yet at the happy stage of the vinyl record revival, where a major chain (HMV) just re-opened a store in my town....2x larger than the one they closed a few years ago and selling *thousands* of titles on vinyl *and* styled in the fashion of a 1970s record shop.....additionally I can pick up a copy of any one of about 50 titles with my bread at the supermarket. Film isn't there yet. But it might be on the way. I agree with being realistic, but talking the undeniable sustained upswing in film sales down and stating that it is "wishful thinking" doesn't help either. As my recent conversation with Andy Church at Kodak-Alaris pointed out.....the best thing to do is for us all to buy more film (from his perspective, preferably Kodak) and to spread the word.

That niche market is growing, substantially, year on year and his for the last 5-6 years. I work with teenage kids and have seen a lot of changes in how they view technology. And what I can say is that currently while I seem really old to them., I'm rather cool because I have a turntable in my office. 15 years ago teenage kids did not know what a record was. Now it's becoming common on the last day of term for the kids to bring instax cameras to school....started just before the pandemic and is picking up again this year. Before it was only phones, except when I started out in the late 90s when kids then brought in film cameras. None has actually shot traditional negative film on site in recent years, but I feel it's coming. Again, I am well known as the staff member who spends his weekends shooting film on ludicrously old cameras. And while I fully embrace something of a "mad scientist" persona (I work in the science dept) I am increasingly viewed as cool rather than odd or weird. Today's late teen college age kids are increasingly shooting film and demanding film is taught in college. Can't be long before their younger siblings, cousins and acquaintances notice this. Which is exactly what happened with vinyl records, where demand grew so great after 15 years of annual doubling of sales that new record presses went back into production for the first time in 30 years at huge expense, and it wasn't even considered a financial gamble to do so.

to me, film is only available by mailorder;not a single store carries it!; some strong interest

 

[BMbikerider]

Whilst on eBay, I put in "Nikon camera" in the "cameras and photography" category and came up w/ over 120,000 hits. When I changed the category to "film photography", I got 10,000. Hmmmm.

Many years in market research tells me that this means something.

Perhaps if you had changed it to Nikon Film Cameras you would have got a better idea. Searching on Nikon Cameras and Film Photography are perhaps to wide a gap in a search category and will throw up a false figure.

Then you have to factor in the number of Nikon Film cameras (like any other make) have, over the years reduced in number either because they have worn out or they are being used less simply because the number of camera users have changed their focus and gone digital.

The number of 'Nikon Cameras when compared to simply film photography will also give a false lead because Digital cameras are being made in an ever wider range and as we all know some people will sell a camera only a few months old despite there being nothing wrong with it, whenever a new ans lightly improved version arrives. Almost certainly it is because they want the the latest 'bling' or there have the misguided conception it will make them better at photography!

To answer your original question Yes there is a demand for film and as Ilford have stated on their website is increasing. Some manufacturers are letting the side down principally Kodak and Fuji who seem to have little interest, in particular with colour negative film and the supply of C41 film world wide in 35mm has a a very uncertain supply chain.

 

[BMbikerider]

to me, film is only available by mailorder;not a single store carries it!; some strong interest

There is strong interest, make no mistake. But humans being humans are essentially lazy and if they can get what they are after without too much work then that is the way to go. However I get little satisfaction from digital because I have so very little input after seeing a picture, pointing the camera and pressing the shutter.

The main reason we - you and most other people have to get it mail order is the variety that is available. A small shop cannot keep the full range when they may sell only a few rolls a week. The mail order companies will be able to sell larger quantities and keep the price down.

When I started photography in the early 1960's I could go to a local small one man shop and buy 3 rolls of FP3 say for $1 (converted from the £). Even in those far off days there were mail order companies and I could buy 4 or 5 rolls for the same price.

 

[Don_ih]

It's worth noting that LPs have come back as a product, not as the way to listen to music. People are using digital devices to stream or play music directly (namely, their phones vie bluetooth). The LP is a thing to hold, look at, keep, display. It's like a piece of art.

Maybe the LP is analogous, though, since most new record players are cheap junk that sound terrible - just like the only new "film cameras" are wallpapered disposables.

Those new record players also, for the most part, act as Bluetooth speakers and can record the contents of the LP to mp3 - so people can listen to the music. But most LPs come with a voucher for a free mp3 download, anyway.

Film comes with no such convenience. As such, even if a wave of people pick it up, it won't displace casual photo-taking. That will be done with the phone camera. And most people wouldn't consider using film to photograph something "important".

 

[faberryman]

Slide show is hard coded in me as a good thing. Teacher pulls out projector and cassette and it's naptime. Worst thing of the late 90's was the switch to power point.

My gastroenterologist, an avid film photographer, has substituted a slide show for propofol when performing colonoscopies. In response, most of his patients are now electing to forego sedation altogether for the procedure.

 

[TJones]

Yes they have. They are decent parallels. The point is that when folk abandon/don’t abandon one technology in favour of the next, it says nothing about the relative merits of the two technologies.

Why, in your opinion, do people abandon one technology for the next?

 

[Sirius Glass]

What bunch of grumpy old men. If young people are enjoying shooting film and making it viable for film manufacturers to continue offering it, I say don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I recently was pointed to a local camera group by my 32 yo daughter who still shoots film. They meet at local breweries once a month and nerd out over their recent finds. Although digital cameras are welcome, every one of the twenty attendees had a film camera with them. About half 35mm and half medium format. Most of them are younger than forty. A group photo was taken by a 4x5 camera and shows some dedicated film shooters.



Oh, and you can still buy a Hickory shaft driver. https://louisvillegolf.com/products/wilsonian-driver

I use a Ford Explorer and a Jeep Grand Cherokee as my drivers. Both have steel drive shafts, front and rear. I do not think that Hickory or even Old Hickory would do the job.

 

[MattKing]

My gastroenterologist, an avid film photographer, has substituted a slide show for propofol when performing colonoscopies. In response, most of his patients are now electing to forego sedation altogether for the procedure.

I can't resist.
Which do they want to end first?

It's worth noting that LPs have come back as a product, not as the way to listen to music. People are using digital devices to stream or play music directly (namely, their phones vie bluetooth). The LP is a thing to hold, look at, keep, display. It's like a piece of art.

Maybe the LP is analogous, though, since most new record players are cheap junk that sound terrible - just like the only new "film cameras" are wallpapered disposables.

Those new record players also, for the most part, act as Bluetooth speakers and can record the contents of the LP to mp3 - so people can listen to the music. But most LPs come with a voucher for a free mp3 download, anyway.

Film comes with no such convenience. As such, even if a wave of people pick it up, it won't displace casual photo-taking. That will be done with the phone camera. And most people wouldn't consider using film to photograph something "important".

There are a bunch of people around here who are refurbishing older turntables. And in the places that sell used electronics, the receivers that have a phono stage command a premium.
Here is a sorted link on Vancouver Craigslist, showing the current listing for "turntables".
https://vancouver.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=turntable

People (like me) are buying LPs to listen to. Both new ones and used ones. They also like to carry their music with them - thus the popularity of digital output turntables.

 

[Dwight Anderson]

I use a Ford Explorer and a Jeep Grand Cherokee as my drivers. Both have steel drive shafts, front and rear. I do not think that Hickory or even Old Hickory would do the job.

Let's give Sirius a hand folks, he'll be here all week, so tell all your friends. Make sure to stop in the lobby and get some T shirts and cassettes.

 

[markjwyatt]

Why, in your opinion, do people abandon one technology for the next?

I visited the train museum in Sacramento. They had an exhibit of the last, and the largest, most powerful and most advanced steam engine ever built. It was a monster. Right next to it was the first General Electric diesel locomotive. Looked puny, but had more torque and power at a fraction of the weight.

I do not think digital is that significant relative to film, but that is a reason people abandon technologies (economics and clear superiority).

 

[Dwight Anderson]

I can't resist.
Which do they want to end first?


There are a bunch of people around here who are refurbishing older turntables. And in the places that sell used electronics, the receivers that have a phono stage command a premium.
Here is a sorted link on Vancouver Craigslist, showing the current listing for "turntables".
https://vancouver.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=turntable

People (like me) are buying LPs to listen to. Both new ones and used ones. They also like to carry their music with them - thus the popularity of digital output turntables.

My turntable is old school, Voice of Music bought new by my mom in 1959. Mechanics refurbished by me, amp rebuilt by a guitar guru.

Cell phone recording doesn't do justice to the great sound.

 

[Don_ih]

People (like me) are buying LPs to listen to

I've been buying records to listen to since I was 16. I never stopped, even though there was a point where I couldn't find a record player. For a while, I had a huge Westinghouse cabinet. That actually sounded better than anything else I've ever had (I now have a Harmon Kardon turntable), even though most cabinet record players sound mediocre.

But I know I'm not the reason vinyl has come back.

It's more than nostalgia. Unlike all alternatives, records offer a physical object that is worthwhile in its own right. A 12x12 album cover with artwork, an insert with more artwork and lyrics, and the record itself. It's an appealing thing and acts more like a souvenir than recording medium. Smaller bands sell them by the stacks after their shows - the people buying them want something real. My oldest son buys records but has never owned a record player.

No one wants cds, anymore. If you're going to buy a physical copy of some music you love, you're going to buy the most beautiful option. That's why it's come back.

 

[Tel]

What bunch of grumpy old men. If young people are enjoying shooting film and making it viable for film manufacturers to continue offering it, I say don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I recently was pointed to a local camera group by my 32 yo daughter who still shoots film. They meet at local breweries once a month and nerd out over their recent finds. Although digital cameras are welcome, every one of the twenty attendees had a film camera with them. About half 35mm and half medium format. Most of them are younger than forty. A group photo was taken by a 4x5 camera and shows some dedicated film shooters.



Oh, and you can still buy a Hickory shaft driver. https://louisvillegolf.com/products/wilsonian-driver

Nice group portrait. They all look like the sort of people who've been friends of mine over the years.

 

[TJones]

I visited the train museum in Sacramento. They had an exhibit of the last, and the largest, most powerful and most advanced steam engine ever built. It was a monster. Right next to it was the first General Electric diesel locomotive. Looked puny, but had more torque and power at a fraction of the weight.

I do not think digital is that significant relative to film, but that is a reason people abandon technologies (economics and clear superiority).

So, on the merits. I’m hoping the person I responded to will enumerate other reasons that might be relevant to this discussion.

 

[Agulliver]

When I spent just under £400 on a Systemdek turntable in 1991, many people thought I was mad. Thought that within two or three years I'd have no possible use for it. I have it still, a similar model is still in production but I could not afford to buy it. Thankfully I kept it's predecessor which now graces my office. I work with teenage kids, all of whom know exactly what those 12x12 packages are that I receive in the post. It's gratifying when a teenager comes into my room and sings along to When The Levee Breaks.

Back to film. Currently it's not as widely available as records. 15 years ago, records were something I could pretty much only get from Amazon and film was everywhere. What I'm saying is that these things can change, and have changed in the past. None of us knows if that will happen with film. But blanket statements such as "film is dead" really aren't of any value.

 

[markjwyatt]

Just to explore this topic more, one idea is that if color film goes, so goes film. I.e., monochrome alone will not keep film alive.

Younger people seem to prefer color film. Even among all film users, color is bigger than monochrome.

On the flip side, color takes a lot more technology to maintain- multi-layer coatings, dyes and chemicals, C-41/E6 proesses (and ECN2). Very few people today (Kodak and Fuji realistically- wish ADOX Godspeed) really have the capability to produce quality color film. Many people can produce monochrome films.

Since cinema is driving a lot of film usage, and cinema requires color, this helps, but most cinema films are ECN2. If color defaults to ECN2 only, how big an issue is this there are ECN2 home process kits)?

My thought is if color ends monochrome may survive, but would likely become a very expensive boutique item. Thoughts?

 

[Dwight Anderson]

Nice group portrait. They all look like the sort of people who've been friends of mine over the years.

To be clear, the group shot isn't mine, I was there with a kalimar 66. They are a fun group, but serious too, a couple of them I met were booked up wedding photographers.

Kalimar sixty six with 52mm

With 80mm and medium extension tube

 

[Cholentpot]

My gastroenterologist, an avid film photographer, has substituted a slide show for propofol when performing colonoscopies. In response, most of his patients are now electing to forego sedation altogether for the procedure.

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk.

 

[faberryman]

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk.

Well, my slide shows weren't really all that bad*, but with the carousel begging for 80 or 140 slides, a few less than gallery level slides might have slipped in here and there from time to time. I don't think I have the attention span to watch a slide show of 80 to 140 images of even [insert your favorite photographer here]. If I were to do slides again. I would probably go with 30 tops like a printed portfolio. Weren't Leica projector trays 35 slots? I think there is some truth to the saying that you are judged by your weakest image.

* Some who actually had to sit through them might disagree, but they aren't my friends anymore so their opinions don't count.

 

[Cholentpot]

Well, my slide shows weren't really all that bad*, but with the carousel begging for 80 or 140 slides, a few less than gallery level slides might have slipped in here and there from time to time. I don't think I have the attention span to watch a slide show of 80 to 140 images of even [insert your favorite photographer here]. If I were to do slides again. I would probably go with 30 tops like a printed portfolio. Weren't Leica projector trays 35 slots? I think there is some truth to the saying that you are judged by your weakest image.

* Some who actually had to sit through them might disagree, but they aren't my friends anymore so their opinions don't count.

I found some random box of slides in an old darkroom I salvaged of the former owner building that said darkroom. I set up projector and showed it to the kids, they were fascinated. A couple of strange men we've never known driving nails and the kids are glued.

Then again, the rotary phone gives hours of entertainment too...

 

[Sirius Glass]

Let's give Sirius a hand folks, he'll be here all week, so tell all your friends. Make sure to stop in the lobby and get some T shirts and cassettes.

I also have a turn table and shelves of records but I do not post endless chatter about that.