Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

[richyd]

I've just seen an advert on TV for an Armani fragrance. It is set in a darkroom, a man and a woman inspecting a roll of negatives, then a print in the wash. Must say something if they are trying to reach a particular audience.

 

[snusmumriken]

I've just seen an advert on TV for an Armani fragrance. It is set in a darkroom, a man and a woman inspecting a roll of negatives, then a print in the wash. Must say something if they are trying to reach a particular audience.

Perhaps it addresses people who use an acetic acid stop bath?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Push mowers work very well if you use it to mow the lawn every day.

And learning to use a point and shoot is easier to learn than falling off a motorcycle. But neither lawn mowers and motorcycles have anything to do with the subject.

 

[Don_ih]

neither lawn mowers and motorcycles have anything to do with the subject.

Horses and boats had nothing to do with it, either. I brought up none of them any more than you did:

What is the French words for "cutting the grass" or "mowing the lawn"?

Probably for every film photo taken, a billion phone photos are taken. But what does that matter? More important would probably be that almost none of the negative film exposed and developed ever sees the inside of an enlarger, so the interest in film only goes halfway. With digital technology always improving - and by that I mean you can more and more easily make the image look however you want - there will continue to be less and less reason to use film as a stepping stone to a digital finished product. Soon, there will be nothing considered a "film look" that can't be done via filter on a cell phone. So, while there may now be an increased interest (but among a relatively small number of people, compared with the number of people who use cell phones for pictures), it's not likely sustainable.

 

[Cholentpot]

And learning to use a point and shoot is easier to learn than falling off a motorcycle. But neither lawn mowers and motorcycles have anything to do with the subject.

They're both loud and smelly and have better modern alternatives. Just like film.

My gas mower from my cold dead severed fingers.

 

[Agulliver]

Those things were the Instamatics of mowing technology. A scythe was much more effective if you knew how to use it. And yes, there is an upsurge of interest in scythes.

A couple of years before the pandemic, "blacksmith" was listed in the top 20 growing industries for young people getting into after leaving school in England. No doubt growing from a small base, but I was talking with a blacksmith a week or so ago who now sells a £200 portable forge. It's made hobbyist blacksmithing and learning the skill at one's home much easier and he's sold far more than he expected. Some people get a kick out of using older skills and/or technology.

Young people, the late teens or early twenties, didn't grow up with film. They didn't have their parents taking loads of film photos of them. It's actually a new phenomenon to them - though of course perfectly aware that it's something old coming back. And the actual data points provided by Henning do suggest that film sales are increasing. I don't think it has anything to do with the AgfaPhoto stuff disappearing. The shops are saying very clearly that they are selling film cameras (used and NOS) to young people who want to do film photography. Educational establishments are resuming film photography courses, which were stopped a decade or more ago....because students are asking for it...not because crusty old lecturers with metol in their beards insist on teaching it.

 

[Cholentpot]

A couple of years before the pandemic, "blacksmith" was listed in the top 20 growing industries for young people getting into after leaving school in England. No doubt growing from a small base, but I was talking with a blacksmith a week or so ago who now sells a £200 portable forge. It's made hobbyist blacksmithing and learning the skill at one's home much easier and he's sold far more than he expected. Some people get a kick out of using older skills and/or technology.

Young people, the late teens or early twenties, didn't grow up with film. They didn't have their parents taking loads of film photos of them. It's actually a new phenomenon to them - though of course perfectly aware that it's something old coming back. And the actual data points provided by Henning do suggest that film sales are increasing. I don't think it has anything to do with the AgfaPhoto stuff disappearing. The shops are saying very clearly that they are selling film cameras (used and NOS) to young people who want to do film photography. Educational establishments are resuming film photography courses, which were stopped a decade or more ago....because students are asking for it...not because crusty old lecturers with metol in their beards insist on teaching it.

I am cool with highschool age kids when I break out the film stuff. It wasn't like this 10 years ago. People slightly older than me (40+) are offended when I use film, I mean they're honestly bewildered. People a bit younger then me don't understand why I would use a camera of any sort when I have a phone. And people a decade or more younger view me as a wizard or some crazy scientist when I say I develop myself. Then again, people over 60 get a kick out of a youngster with a TLR.

 

[snusmumriken]

And learning to use a point and shoot is easier to learn than falling off a motorcycle. But neither lawn mowers and motorcycles have anything to do with the subject.

Yes they have. They are decent parallels. The point is that when folk abandon/don’t abandon one technology in favour of the next, it says nothing about the relative merits of the two technologies.

 

[faberryman]

The point is that when folk abandon/don’t abandon one technology in favour of the next, it says nothing about the relative merits of the two technologies.

Sure it does. It says that for most people the new technology is better at doing whatever it does than the old technology. Rarely do you go back to the old technology except out of a sense of nostalgia. At the moment I am watching the golf tournament. Nobody is hitting a driver with a persimmon head and a hickory shaft. And my television is not black and white. And the air conditioning is on. And I am not connected to the internet with a 300 baud modem and a dial up connection. And...

 

[RalphLambrecht]

unfortunately, it's only wishful thinking by the once who can't let go but, there is a strong niche market left.

 

[Agulliver]

unfortunately, it's only wishful thinking by the once who can't let go but, there is a strong niche market left.

It's more than wishful thinking, backed up by the data Henning has given us here in these very pages year on year. Backed up by what Ilford and Kodak repeatedly say...if you listen. Backed up by what the owners and staff in camera shops say.

We aren't yet at the happy stage of the vinyl record revival, where a major chain (HMV) just re-opened a store in my town....2x larger than the one they closed a few years ago and selling *thousands* of titles on vinyl *and* styled in the fashion of a 1970s record shop.....additionally I can pick up a copy of any one of about 50 titles with my bread at the supermarket. Film isn't there yet. But it might be on the way. I agree with being realistic, but talking the undeniable sustained upswing in film sales down and stating that it is "wishful thinking" doesn't help either. As my recent conversation with Andy Church at Kodak-Alaris pointed out.....the best thing to do is for us all to buy more film (from his perspective, preferably Kodak) and to spread the word.

That niche market is growing, substantially, year on year and his for the last 5-6 years. I work with teenage kids and have seen a lot of changes in how they view technology. And what I can say is that currently while I seem really old to them., I'm rather cool because I have a turntable in my office. 15 years ago teenage kids did not know what a record was. Now it's becoming common on the last day of term for the kids to bring instax cameras to school....started just before the pandemic and is picking up again this year. Before it was only phones, except when I started out in the late 90s when kids then brought in film cameras. None has actually shot traditional negative film on site in recent years, but I feel it's coming. Again, I am well known as the staff member who spends his weekends shooting film on ludicrously old cameras. And while I fully embrace something of a "mad scientist" persona (I work in the science dept) I am increasingly viewed as cool rather than odd or weird. Today's late teen college age kids are increasingly shooting film and demanding film is taught in college. Can't be long before their younger siblings, cousins and acquaintances notice this. Which is exactly what happened with vinyl records, where demand grew so great after 15 years of annual doubling of sales that new record presses went back into production for the first time in 30 years at huge expense, and it wasn't even considered a financial gamble to do so.

 

[faberryman]

I'm rather cool because I have a turntable in my office. 15 years ago teenage kids did not know what a record was. Now it's becoming common on the last day of term for the kids to bring instax cameras to school....started just before the pandemic and is picking up again this year. Before it was only phones, except when I started out in the late 90s when kids then brought in film cameras. None has actually shot traditional negative film on site in recent years, but I feel it's coming. Again, I am well known as the staff member who spends his weekends shooting film on ludicrously old cameras. And while I fully embrace something of a "mad scientist" persona (I work in the science dept) I am increasingly viewed as cool rather than odd or weird. Today's late teen college age kids are increasingly shooting film and demanding film is taught in college. Can't be long before their younger siblings, cousins and acquaintances notice this. Which is exactly what happened with vinyl records, where demand grew so great after 15 years of annual doubling of sales that new record presses went back into production for the first time in 30 years at huge expense, and it wasn't even considered a financial gamble to do so.

There is no question that niche markets exist for old technologies.

With respect to vinyl records, sales have been increasing for the the past 15 or so years. In 2021, approximately 42 million records were sold. However, that is a drop in the bucket compared to vinyl's heyday, and is also a drop in the bucket compared to other formats today. Here is a chart showing sales by format over the years. Vinyl sales, shown in pale green, peaked in the late 1970s, and almost disappeared by the early 1990s as everyone shifted to cassettes and CDs. Vinyl's "comeback" is barely visible in the chart compared to other media sales. Did I mention that toy train sales are up too?

 

[Cholentpot]

There is no question that niche markets exist for old technologies.

With respect to vinyl records, sales have been increasing for the the past 15 or so years. In 2021, approximately 42 million records we sold. However, that is a drop in the bucket compared to vinyl's heyday, and is also a drop in the bucket compared to other formats today. Here is a chart showing sales by format over the years. Vinyl sales, shown in pale green, peaked in the late 1970s, and almost disappeared by the early 1990s as everyone shifted to cassettes and CDs. Vinyl's "comeback" today is barely visible in the chart compared to other media sales. Did I mention that toy train sales are up too?

View attachment 308417

This again.

Don't compare to when there was no other option. A dominant format at it's height vs a format that has dozens of competitors? Even seeing any record sales is amazing.

Sure film sold billions of feet each year when it was the only option. The fact that it's still selling out after it supposedly died is good news.

 

[faberryman]

This again.

Don't compare to when there was no other option. A dominant format at it's height vs a format that has dozens of competitors? Even seeing any record sales is amazing.

Sure film sold billions of feet each year when it was the only option. The fact that it's still selling out after it supposedly died is good news.

Just trying to put things in a little perspective.

I don't mind being in a niche market. Actually, I like to think I am a member of an exclusive club.

 

[Pieter12]

Film is dead. It is a niche market for hipsters (who will most probably drop out after a while), hobbyists and some art photographers. Darkroom printing is also a lost art that no-one wants to bother with anymore. While film sales may be up (and down) temporarily, aspects like cost, water usage and chemical waste are also of concern. Most people do not take into account what may go into the manufacturing process of their digital products, nor their disposal. But with film, it can be something one is more in touch with and can be a concern.

 

[Cholentpot]

Just trying to put things in a little perspective.

I don't mind being in a niche market. Actually, I like to think I am a member of an exclusive club.

'I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.'

 

[Sirius Glass]

Film is dead. ...

Do not say that near my freezer. It would cause a panic.

 

[Pieter12]

Do not say that near my freezer. It would cause a panic.

Cryogenics?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Do not say that near my freezer. It would cause a panic.

Cryogenics?

If film were really dead, then the dead would arise in mass, but not in a church mass.

 

[Agulliver]

Film is dead.

Then what are you doing here?

No point comparing vinyl record sales in a time when there was little real competition with now. Back in the day, few people had a cassette deck good enough to rival records and even fewer had a reel to reel deck which can sound even better. Today vinyl competes with the CD as well as online streaming and downloads. What the vinyl revival shows is that a product/format which once looked like it might disappear can make a comeback into the mainstream. Vinyl records have achieved that. 30 years ago I had a decent record shop in my home town but it had decided to devote more space to CDs and had a flirtation with laserdisc. I had to travel to London to get a good choice of records on display to browse. Now not only is that old record shop back to being 2/3 vinyl, I can pick up a decent selection of mainstream titles in the supermarket. A chain music store in the mall has just re-opened after an absence of several years with well over 1000 records to browse in a very 1970s style setup. There's even a listening station. Records are no longer a niche, no longer something I need to travel for or order online. They're in the supermarket and the mall.

Film isn't there yet. No supermarket has yet taken the gamble of stocking film again - at least not in the UK. The resurgence hasn't yet lasted long enough and the inconsistency of supply of C41 colour negative film will put off any supermarket decision makers from stocking film. But the next few years could see that change, especially if there can be a consistent supply of something like Color Plus - which is what can be sold to the masses.

What I hear, from Henning, from Kodak-Alaris, from the staff at several camera shops and from personal observation....is that interest in film photography is definitely increasing year on year. Let's see how far that goes.

Meanwhile, believe it or not, in 2020 I was called upon to test brand new cassette tapes for three manufacturers....

 

[Pieter12]

Then what are you doing here?

I may be among the few that still shoot black and white film rather than digital on a continual basis. But that doesn't mean there is a rise in demand for film. I would not be surprised to see it diminish in the near future. Magnetic sound recording tape, vinyl records are all nostalgic, niche products for the young trying something trendy or old, nostalgic farts with money. And as far as color film is concerned, I have better things to do with my time. And I would have to be dragged tied up and gagged to watch a slide show.

 

[Minolta93]

Then what are you doing here?

No point comparing vinyl record sales in a time when there was little real competition with now. Back in the day, few people had a cassette deck good enough to rival records and even fewer had a reel to reel deck which can sound even better. Today vinyl competes with the CD as well as online streaming and downloads. What the vinyl revival shows is that a product/format which once looked like it might disappear can make a comeback into the mainstream. Vinyl records have achieved that. 30 years ago I had a decent record shop in my home town but it had decided to devote more space to CDs and had a flirtation with laserdisc. I had to travel to London to get a good choice of records on display to browse. Now not only is that old record shop back to being 2/3 vinyl, I can pick up a decent selection of mainstream titles in the supermarket. A chain music store in the mall has just re-opened after an absence of several years with well over 1000 records to browse in a very 1970s style setup. There's even a listening station. Records are no longer a niche, no longer something I need to travel for or order online. They're in the supermarket and the mall.

Film isn't there yet. No supermarket has yet taken the gamble of stocking film again - at least not in the UK. The resurgence hasn't yet lasted long enough and the inconsistency of supply of C41 colour negative film will put off any supermarket decision makers from stocking film. But the next few years could see that change, especially if there can be a consistent supply of something like Color Plus - which is what can be sold to the masses.

What I hear, from Henning, from Kodak-Alaris, from the staff at several camera shops and from personal observation....is that interest in film photography is definitely increasing year on year. Let's see how far that goes.

Meanwhile, believe it or not, in 2020 I was called upon to test brand new cassette tapes for three manufacturers....

What manufacturers were those? The ones making the tapes, I mean. I only know of a couple manufacturers right now, which would be Recording The Masters, National Audio, and I believe ATR Magnetics. Were those the three?

 

[Cholentpot]

I may be among the few that still shoot black and white film rather than digital on a continual basis. But that doesn't mean there is a rise in demand for film. I would not be surprised to see it diminish in the near future. Magnetic sound recording tape, vinyl records are all nostalgic, niche products for the young trying something trendy or old, nostalgic farts with money. And as far as color film is concerned, I have better things to do with my time. And I would have to be dragged tied up and gagged to watch a slide show.

But kids don't have the tied up and gagged to watch a slide show mentality.

They and their friends know the time effort and money it took to get the point of a slide show. It's not mundane anymore. It's exciting, look what I did! I resurrected this old camera, cleaned this lens, found a working projector and some new old stock bulbs, calibrated the lens, metered, shot, developed and mounted these slides and look! Isn't that awesome?! Here, pass these around and check out the detail! Amazing!

I was not subjected to slide shows, however I am subjected to stale FWD FWD FWD FWD dumb memes and corny jokes from the slideshow generation. They all seem to think it's the cats meow to pass around a joke that's been seen thousands of times that wasn't really all that funny to begin with.

To each their own.

 

[Pieter12]

But kids don't have the tied up and gagged to watch a slide show mentality.

They and their friends know the time effort and money it took to get the point of a slide show. It's not mundane anymore. It's exciting, look what I did! I resurrected this old camera, cleaned this lens, found a working projector and some new old stock bulbs, calibrated the lens, metered, shot, developed and mounted these slides and look! Isn't that awesome?! Here, pass these around and check out the detail! Amazing!

And they'll tire of it in no time at all. It's just a game.

I can't even stand digital slide shows for that matter...I would rather be in charge of how long I look at something, whether to linger or skip or go back. And putting zooms or moves on a still image (ala Ken Burns) irks me too. I'll decide if something merits a closer look or if I want to take in the entire image without annoying actions added. Oh, yeah, and keep music out of the whole deal. Make a movie/video if you want all that shit.

 

[faberryman]

I can't even stand digital slide shows for that matter...I would rather be in charge of how long I look at something, whether to linger or skip or go back. And putting zooms or moves on a still image (ala Ken Burns) irks me too. I'll decide if something merits a closer look or if I want to take in the entire image without annoying actions added. Oh, yeah, and keep music out of the whole deal. Make a movie/video if you want all that shit.

I agree. The only way my slide shows could have been worse would have been if I had added music.