Is it possible to print Portra 160 on llford Multigrade ?

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Is it possible to print Portra 160 on llford Multigrade ?

 

[Paul Howell]

No, color film has a orange mask layer. At one time Kodak made a special black and white paper for printing color negatives.

 

[thinkbrown]

It's possible but adds some additional challenges due to the mask

 

[DREW WILEY]

No and Yes. The bigger problem is the very low contrast of Portra originals compared to typical black and white negative originals. I've successfully handled problems like this by generating a black and white film interpositive, and then, from that, a significantly higher contrast b&w printing internegative.

The orange mask should be nulled out in the earlier interpositive step, by using an equal orange density filter in the exposure light path (like a blank but developed piece of the same kind of Portra film).

 

[AZD]

A long time ago when I had essentially unlimited experimental abilities in a school darkroom I naturally tried printing C41 negatives on variable contrast black and white paper. It “works”, but not particularly well. I recall having to use the #4 or 5 contrast filter plus very long exposure times due to that and the orange mask. Any grain is accentuated, just like with b&w negatives. The tonality can be odd due to the way R-G-B is converted to C-M-Y dye in the negative, and of course variable contrast filters are M-Y, so it’s all messed up to start with even before the orange mask.

That said… try it. You may not hate it. Occasionally a print looks reasonably acceptable. Not something I would recommend as standard practice though.

Kodak once had a panchromatic b&w paper called Panalure especially for printing C41 as monochrome. I never got to try it. It was killed off with the other Kodak papers 20 years ago.

 

[mshchem]

Panalure Portrait DW fiber base paper was amazing stuff, predates RC Panalure.

 

[ezphotolessons]

the print may have a strange-other-worldly-tint.

 

[koraks]

Exactly what @AZD says. Long exposure times, high contrast grade; results are hit & miss. If the print must be a darkroom print, then it can work this way. But for a technically better print, scan the color negative and then output in whatever way desired.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Just do the double-negative route like I do, if you want to keep it all darkroom workflow.
Not all that difficult if you have a little practice and the right films.

 

[MattKing]

the print may have a strange-other-worldly-tint.

Not likely - the paper is still purely monochrome, unless you tone it.
The spectral response will be wonky though - items in the subject will be either lighter or darker in the print than in real life, depending on their colour.

 

[DREW WILEY]

All of that is controllable when making the film interpositive, by using color contrast filtration just like over a camera lens when taking black and white shots (except that everything is opposite, filter-wise, because you're going negative to negative). I've gotten some stunning prints; but it's too much of a chore for routine use. Easier to just go out and shoot black and white film in the first place. But sometimes you only get one chance for an image which might work well in both color and b&w. Frankly, it's easier to make printing internegs from chrome film than fuss around with color negs. But all of this can be fun and challenging as long as you've got other options too, for when it does get frustrating.

 

[ezphotolessons]

The spectral response will be wonky though

Yes, wonky-like-paper-negative-wonky.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Again, why wonky? It's all correctible. One nice thing about the double negative technique is that the inter-positive will show you the same positive tonality as the final print, just lower contrast. And that still leaves you all kind of control options, both in the subsequent internegative step, and during final printing.

 

[MattKing]

Again, why wonky? It's all correctible.

Or more appropriately, it can be dealt with if you apply additional materials and additional techniques.
As @Mustafa Umut Sarac is apparently taking a darkroom printing course - perhaps even an introductory course - those additions may not be practical.

 

[Don_ih]

The orange mask should be nulled out in the earlier interpositive step, by using an equal orange density filter in the exposure light path

The orange mask would not be nulled out if you filtered the exposure through another orange mask. That's just more orange mask. Maybe a blue filter?

 

[Samu]

It depends how you define the word "possible". Yes, you can print color film on B & W paper, but on multigrade, the grading system is based on color, and this will distort the result. Probably, dialing a lot of cyan from the color head would work against the orange mask, but the masking is not uniform, and the images are still colored.

It would be easier to use fixed grade paper for printing black and white from color negatives. Even this way, the results will not be perfect.

 

[Don_ih]

And if you get it in your head to search out some Panalure, don't bother. None of it will be any good.

Koraks' advice is likely the best and easiest way to go.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

It's possible but adds some additional challenges due to the mask

it's hard to get any contrast but you ill get an image!

 

[DREW WILEY]

No, Don. When you're going negative to negative you have to think the opposite, just like when RA4 printing. To reduce orange, you add orange. There's a little more to it than that; but that's a basic.

You can use a med blue filter for viewing a color neg by eye to get an approximation of what's there minus the orange mask, but of course, with all the colors reversed (magenta = green, blue = yellow, yellow = blue, cyan = red, etc.

Again, I don't understand all the pessimism. I've gotten great results with extant VC papers via the double negative route - but certainly not by trying to directly expose a color neg on regular paper !!

 

[Derek Lofgreen]

My answer is yes. I have done it. I chucked the negative in the holder and started printing like I do with black and white. I found the exposure times, somewhere around 15 mins... really long, and something like a 4 contrast grade. The image suited the contrast and worked fantastic. I printed a couple of 11x14s. Have one on the wall now. Perfectly nice print. Just do it and see if your color image "translates" well to the BW paper. Doing is knowing.

 

[mshchem]

Not likely - the paper is still purely monochrome, unless you tone it.
The spectral response will be wonky though - items in the subject will be either lighter or darker in the print than in real life, depending on their colour.

What Matt Says.

Look at the old Kodak black and white printing books. I've done it decades ago. It wasn't so difficult with Polycontrast Rapid rc, no filter. Like Matt says things that appear darker in a color print might not appear so on the black and white print.

For those folks out there that only have color negatives and want to give it a try go for it.

 

[tcolgate]

Results might be a bit variable, depending on the neg, but there's never any harm in trying. It's worth a few test strips, and at the very least you'll learn something.

It's certainly doable (Ilford even have a video on it if you want to see an example.

 

[mshchem]

I wonder what Harman Phoenix would look like printed on Ilford Multigrade paper would look like?

 

[koraks]

It's certainly doable (Ilford even have a video on it if you want to see an example.

In the video they show strips of Phoenix (I) negatives. That's a bit of an oddball because there's no orange mask to contend with, and contrast is far higher than on any normal CN film.

Doing is knowing.

Yup. I've done the same. It's a pain w.r.t. exposure times, sometimes it works out OK, sometimes it doesn't.

Again, I don't understand all the pessimism. I've gotten great results with extant VC papers via the double negative route

Sure. I do understand the pessimism though. Mucking about making two generations of pos/neg intermediates is something many people won't want to bother with to make a print.

 

[mshchem]

When I was in high school I was bound and determined to do everything myself. I was developing my own Ektachrome in E3 and E4 chemistry. I was printing color slides onto Ektachrome paper. Using a Vivitar enlarger. 75W bulb wasn't cutting it so I swapped in a photoflood, I cut a hole in the lamphouse and used my Mom's Lady Kenmore (Sears (Simpson Sears in Canada then)) hairdryer in no heat mode for cooling. It worked, I still have a few terrible prints tucked away of a girlfriend, cute as a button.

I think this is the fun of it all! Somewhere I have a 34.5mm El Nikkor lens cap, melted in the center. Don't forget to remove the lens cap!