Is it possible for a particular color to fall outside of the Portra 400 gamut?

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Steven Lee

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My situation is that I noticed that one very specific color never shows up properly on my Portra 400 scans. It gets cooler and desaturated. The color is somewhere between pink and purple, maybe someone would be able to nail the name, it's basically the darker color of this girl's dress:

1689654074466.png


It shows up fairly life-like on iPhone photos or photos taken with my Canon digital camera, as shown above.
But the same dress never looks like this on Portra 400 scans. Here is what I get:

crop.jpg


Sometimes, when the color gets closer to purple, it gets completely desaturated. This picture is particularly telling:

flowrz.jpg


Usually these look like this:

Untitled-2.jpg


I have numerous other examples, with different light and different subjects. But it's always the pink/purple combo and always Portra. Could be a coincidence, I should probably shoot that dress on 5 different emulsions to make sure.

This can also be the limitation of my scanning. At the moment I sold all of my scanners and using the Sony A7R. I have access to 3 automatic color inversion tools, but I prefer to invert manually. No matter how I go about the inversion, I can't get that color to be even close (without destroying every other color in a photo). In case you're wondering, I have zero complaints about the colors I normally get, as long as it's not this one :smile:

I will find a few negatives with this color and send them out to a lab asking for a raw scan, but while I do that, I wanted to post a question here and see if my problem lies in the analog domain and perhaps emulsions have gamut limitations? (hence I'm posting into the analog section). I only see in with Portra, but I do not shoot enough color (and did not keep a good record of my past scans) so I can't find any examples of this color exposed on other films.

Thoughts?

[EDIT] I forgot to mention two other thoughts I had. First, could this be that Kodak deliberately wanted to desaturate this particular hue to make people's skin look better than in real life? Less cooked? It's called Portra, after all. The second is the observation that if you invert the digital image (with a truer color) in Photoshop it will look bright green, and I can't recall ever seeing a Portra neg with such punchy uninverted green. The latter thought prompted me to post here.
 
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MattKing

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Are you using a UV filter?
That particular colour is very close to violet.
 
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Steven Lee

Steven Lee

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Yes, both cameras have the same brand UV filter. I mean the digital canon and the analog Hassy. Wouldn't a UV filter have the same effect in both cases?
 

mshchem

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I would want to have a good darkroom print. Several years ago I walked around one of the Amana Iowa with my RZ67II and some Portra NC, red, yellow, purple, flowers, foliage etc turned out beautiful. That was printed on Kodak professional paper.

I always have a terrible time scanning color negative film. So many things that seem to happen with the software.

The other thing color temperature of the light is crucial for good results 5500-6000 K illumination.
 

MattKing

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The digital sensor might have more UV sensitivity.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Portras intentionally have slightly less sensitivity toward the blue/violet/ultra-violet end of the spectrum - that is consistent with their portrait photography orientation.
I'd try a couple of A-B shots - one with UV filter, the other not.
 

MattKing

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With respect to the violet coloured fabric, that is the sort of colour that often really stands out with black light illumination - those dyes often fluoresce under UV. That was a big thing at parties back in the day - can you say "Deep Purple" :smile:?
 

koraks

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@Steven Lee you've hit upon an incredibly complex topic, and to cut matters short: you're probably never going to find out what's happening.

This is because the issue is multi-faceted and trying to unravel the exact cause of this phenomenon requires rigorous testing and equipment that's likely beyond your means - not to mention that at an early stage you'll probably call it a day and move on. Which I would certainly recommend :wink:

The issue at hand is metamerism, or metameric failure, where a hue is represented in a different way depending on who/what observes it and under which conditions. The causes for this metameric failure are very diverse and the issue explodes in complexity because of the several stages of color processing, each of which being prone to variations:
* The nature of the colorant itself
* The lighting conditions
* The recording device (in this case film in a camera)
* Film processing
* Film illumination during scanning
* The scanner/camera used for A/D conversion
* Display of the result (which in turn can explode in several directions)
* Human observation of the result as well as the original during recording

Each of these areas has an underlying complex of causes that can result in hues ending up different than anticipated, and each of these requires a pretty thorough understanding of the underlying physics. Hence my somewhat pessimistic comment that you're probably never going to figure this one out - it would take years of study just to understand what might be happening, let alone determining what really is going on. I'm also not in a position to give a full answer (apart from my lack of willingness to write an entire book in this text box!), but I can highlight a few problem areas in particular.

Firstly, there's the question of the nature of the hue itself. You mention a hue as if it's only one, but I can firmly guarantee that the dress and the wisteria flowers are fundamentally different hues. Each colorant (let's say a dye) has its own, specific wavelength absorption spectrum, which is the description of which wavelengths of light it will absorb and which ones it will reflect (resulting in some kind of color). Even if you take two dyes that visibly seem to match in color, their actual absorption spectra can be very different. Here's an illustration:
1689660563051.png

From here, page 18: https://www.sto.nato.int/publications/STO Meeting Proceedings/STO-MP-SET-277/MP-SET-277-12.pdf

These are the spectra of four blue pigments commonly used in paintings (especially older paintings). Yes, the hues are different, but the spectra are actually quite wildly different. Note how the Azurite is a pretty pure blue that reflects anything in the blue spectrum and blocks everything else. Compare this to Smalt, which actually is a blue and red pigment with significant reflectivity in the deep red and infrared region of the spectrum. Indigo does a similar 'trick' and probably reflects a lot of UV as well. All of these spectra are actually quite decent in the sense that they're fairly gradual. Some dye spectra are much more erratic; see for instance the caretoneid spectrum on this page: https://www.savemyexams.co.uk/a-lev...ss/13-1-5-absorption-spectra--action-spectra/

You may be able to imagine that such differences in reflectance/absorbance have very profound effect if you start overlying them on top of the spectra of (1) different light sources, (2) light-sensitive silver halide emulsions, (3) digital CCD sites and (4) rods and cones in the human eye. Essentially, these complex interactions probably explain most or all of the hue shift that you're witnessing. Let's have a look at some of those emissions and sensitivity spectra:

1689660966642.png

Spectra of different light sources; taken from here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...es-a-Xenon-lamp-b-incandescent_fig1_330372622
For the dress, which will spend at least some of its time being photographed indoors, the above is quite relevant. But even natural light plays tricks on us:
1689661099062.png

From here: https://handprint.com/HP/WCL/color1.html
Notice how especially in the blue/violet region, funny things happen depending on the nature of (natural!) light that hits those wisteria flowers.

This is then what your film (Portra 400) sees:
1689661194602.png

From its datasheet: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/files/resources/e4050_portra_400.pdf
Notice that your suspicion that the film may be blind (my reformulation of your words) to this particular hue is likely not the problem. However, it may record the hue in a way that causes problems/shifts later on in processing. For instance, it certainly is a little more sensitive to certain hues and a little less to others, and especially if the absorption spectrum of the violet colorant (in the dress, in the flower) is pretty lumpy, you could run into odd amplifications of certain hues while others go surprisingly dim. So yes, the film may play a role, but my guess is that this is probably only one of the minor effects.

Of course, the above is the sensitivity of the film (i.e. its silver halides), but its actual hue reproduction (the dyes forming the image) is yet another one:
1689661387618.png

(From the Portra 400 datasheet again).
Don't try to match the wavelengths above to real colors in your scene - we're looking here at a dye reproduction, including color correction mask, of a color negative film. At this stage, any firm relationship with reality is basically lost. The only way we can recover something resembling accurate color reproduction is through calibration - and accepting that indeed, our recording gamut is always limited compared to reality.

In a digital camera, which you're using, funny things also happen; here's the spectral sensitivity of a random CCD (of a Nikon D700 as it happens):
1689661583693.png

As you can see, there's ample crosstalk between color channels (although this sensor seems to perform pretty decently by all accounts) and there are also distinct non-linearities that need to be somehow 'fixed in post' if we want real-world accuracy. Much of this already happens within the camera itself and/or in any software RAW processor.

Note that you actually have to look at the interactions between the camera CCD, the illuminant used to backlight your film, and the dye absorption spectra of the film. And this in relation to how the dye image actually correlated with real-world colorants under the illuminant at recording time - you still with me?

Then comes another tricky bit, which is how your computer monitor constructs hues. As you know, it doesn't have any violet emitters, so it fakes violet by mixing mostly blue with a little red and maybe a tiny pinch of green (which will be less if it's a really saturated violet). However, the gamut of your monitor is of course also limited - yes, it's really nice, but still limited. And especially in the violets, it's quite limited, although yellows/oranges suffer just as well. This has to do with with the 'saturation cost' of mixing colors from primary (see here for an excellent discussion: https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color14.html#satcost) - simply put, if you start with red and blue of high saturation, a mixed violet will always be of a somewhat lower saturation. Your real-world violet dye (especially the wisteria; not so sure about the dress...) may be a very high chroma, pure violet. As a result, it will simply be impossible to render with the same chroma/saturation on a computer monitor. Although, as said, those are really good these days. Still not perfect. Btw, this issue of saturation cost is also VERY relevant when you print your images, regardless of printing method. This is also the main reason why high-end printers these days not only print CMYK, but actually have red, violet and green inks added to the spectrum to increase chroma in those areas of the color wheel. (No, Fuji didn't like it when I commented that their reds on Crystal Archive papers can never be as good as some inkjet printed reds - but it's inescapable!)

Now, we've arrived at the really tricky bit, and frankly, I don't know nearly enough of this to say much about it - but it's us, and our own, human eyes. This is a universe of complexity all by itself, with the sensitivity spectra of our rods and cones, but also and very importantly ( & confusingly) the psychology of color perception. There's a running joke between my fiancee and myself about my teal sweater that I consistently call 'green' while she refers to it as my 'blue sweater'. The reasons why we fundamentally disagree which primary or secondary color the damn thing is, is illustrative of the complexity of this topic. For all we know, we may be seeing different colors. Or maybe it's a linguistics thing, mostly. Or .... a thousand other possibilities...

And this is only the story of the spectra. What we have not touched upon are issues of color management and profiling in digital space, issues of fluorescence as @MattKing hints at (although I think they are fairly insignificant by and large and merge into the issues outlined above; think about it), the problem of that dress not being one particular hue, but actually spanning a significant part of the color wheel, how human memory of a hue is probably not always reliable, how well your C41 processing actually is, etc. etc. etc. The list just goes on.

The tricky bit is of course that all of these interactions are occurring throughout the color reproduction process, sometimes even at the same time.

I'm not sure if this helped. Practically, probably not, because it's not going to solve your problem. But maybe all of the above will somehow help having peace with the fact that color reproduction is a tricky son of a gun, and that it's a pretty deep hole you're digging for yourself if you want to start fussing about it. In all honesty, if you want your violets to render better than on Portra 400, consider shooting digital. For all intents and purposes, it's going to give you better reproduction overall and an easier job getting to screen (or print) what you see before your eyes. As you can tell from the above, with film, there are some additional steps in a film-based process that bring severe complications. Even despite how phenomenally good color film technology (still) is today, it adds a few layers of possible errors especially if you're going to end up with a digital output anyway.

This is not to say that film is somehow dead. Here's a funny anecdote: I was discussing issues along these lines with an all-analog color printer and photographer couple a few months ago. We came to talk about the choice for film (mostly Ektar I think they use for color) and paper (Kodak Endura, probably now switching to Fuji) for their work. They were adamant in their assertion that it was just not possible to accurately capture certain hues from nature (especially plant dyes, coincidentally) using digital technology. That's why they stick to film and paper. I'm skeptical, and I think it also has something to do with not being capable or willing to relearn color reproduction in the digital domain. But it does illustrate that at least for some, and sometimes, the analog method is still a more reliable and easier way to their end result. But you may have to do without the sunlit wisteria violets.
 

BMbikerider

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This has been known for many, many years in UK when taking pictures of flowers called Bluebells in UK. It is the difference between the eye's perception of the colour and what the film sees: be it colour negative or slide it makes no difference.. Bluebells like shady ground to grow in which appears to make it worse.

There does not seem to be anyway of reducing or eliminating it unless you are a very skilful manual printer who is prepared to change the colour balance over a specific area by dodging or burning with different filter values and careful handling of changes in exposure.

With the advent of digital imaging, the effect is not so prominent - but still there. This can be eliminated entirely by careful use of the tools to change colour tones in small areas that photoshop provide.
 

Mr Bill

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My situation is that I noticed that one very specific color never shows up properly on my Portra 400 scans. It gets cooler and desaturated. The color is somewhere between pink and purple, maybe someone would be able to nail the name, it's basically the darker color of this girl's dress:
Hi, I'd guess this is basically an issue with your scanning, but I guess it really depends on how one wants to define the "problem" and its related conditions.

In my past experience, using the 160 version rather than 400... IF you photographed under the appropriate light (we used pro-level electronic flash w/UV-coated flash tubes) and IF you optically printed onto an appropriate professional paper (these might not be available anymore) and IF you compare under a "proper" light source (with full spectral makeup, about 4,000 to 5,000 K) we (large portrait chain) had no problem getting a close visual match to just about any normal fabric. And we did pretty extensive testing, etc., on this sort of thing. Aside from the formal testing we'd sometimes ask lab employees who had taken their kids to a studio to bring in an outfit, or whatever, so we could compare to their prints in a color booth. I do not ever recall a case where we couldn't get a close match. Fwiw in those days we used a nominal 4200 K CCT viewing booth setup, as a reasonable compromise between daylight (~5500K, more or less) and tungsten light (~2850K, more or less, the most common home lighting of the day.)

Some people have mentioned UV fluorescence of certain fabrics. This is a very real problem if using flash tubes that are NOT "UV-coated." Almost all white clothing (in the US, at least) includes "brighteners" that give a bluish tinge under UV light. If you photograph people under electronic flash without UV filtering you WILL get a bluish tinge from such clothing (the tinge mostly disappears if printed light enough). But if the flash is UV filtered, no such problem.

I personally never got much involved with scanning, but we occasionally did certain production work from scanning negs. In this case we had something upwards of a dozen Kodak HR500 scanners supported by Kodak (they would supply the "matrices" and whatever, used via Kodak DP2 software, probably the most complete pro lab software ever made, at least for the US market, IMO. Now, that work never looked quite as good as when optically printed, but this could have been largely due to poor printer characterization (ICC profiles, etc.) But I didn't know much about those things at the time, nor have much involvement with the output; my department (QC) always had its hands full with other things. Fwiw the HR500 scanners are occasionally mentioned on this site; these were actually $40,000 (US) and up scanners, the fastest made using ASF dirt detection, and the Kodak color science guys were probably (IMHO) among the best in the business.

Sorry that I don't have any good answers to your situation. If I had to deal with such a problem, today, in a hurry and with enough $$ behind me, I'd look for ex-Kodak color-specialist consultants, etc. (I should say that I'm in the USA). If not enough money for that I'd probably look at X-rite professional profile-making systems and see about making ICC profiles for the your scanning system. (As well as for your monitor and printer.) Failing that, I dunno.

I know, from your posts, that you're a guy who wants to understand the mechanisms of these things, so a couple of books I'd suggest would be the later version of "Digital Color Management... something or other" by Giorgianni et al, and for more specific profiling info the later version of "Understanding Color Management" by Abhay Sharma (I think). (I've not actually seen Sharma's later edition, but something makes me think that he covers making a scanner profile.)

I gotta put a disclaimer... I can't say anything about Portra and foliage in the outdoors. Someone mentioned bluebell flowers, I believe. When the Macbeth Color chart was originally made (late 70s?) they tried to roughly mimick same, I believe. There was a technical papers by McCamy et al, about their attempts and some of their issues. If it still exists on the internet I believe it was called "A Color-Renditon Chart..." or something to that effect, and some may enjoy reading it.

One last note: I don't think it's quite proper to say that Portra has a "color space." Consider that all visible colors come from light with wavelengths from roughly 400 to 700 nm. So if a color film can record differences between each (small) change in wavelength it can, in essence, record every possible "color." Lots of other details involved here, but the things we know as ICC color spaces are all based on human visual response to a "stimulus" and put in reference to a "white card" under a specified "illuminant." So a print using certain dyes can have a certain limited gamut (a maximum range of color) under some given "illuminant," but it can never exceed the color saturation of a pure (narrow) wavelength. Like some people have said, it's complicated.
 

BMbikerider

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Hi, I'd guess this is basically an issue with your scanning, but I guess it really depends on how one wants to define the "problem" and its related conditions.
This has absolutely nothing to do with scanning. It was well known in the days when traditional printing was the only way to produce colour pictures, either prints of slides.

The effect will be there on the film scanned but maybe exacerbated by the scanner but it all stems from using film not electronic hardware.
 

koraks

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It was well known in the days when traditional printing was the only way to produce pictures.

But is/was the problem in the printing or the recording stage? If the latter, how was this established?
See my rather lengthy post on the issue. It's for instance very likely that the saturation cost of representing an intense violet using a cyan and magenta dye (e.g. in RA4 paper) will result in a disappointingly unsaturated violet color.
 

Mr Bill

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This has absolutely nothing to do with scanning. It was well known in the days when traditional printing was the only way to produce colour pictures, either prints of slides.

The effect will be there on the film scanned but maybe exacerbated by the scanner but it all stems from using film not electronic hardware.

No, I disagree.

I moved into lab work mid to late 70s because I wanted to learn about the black art of color processing/printing. In those days there were many many issues with color reproduction. (I'm speaking strictly about color neg/print systems using professional portrait/wedding film, under the sort of lighting these films were designed for.) In those days it was Kodak CPS film in C-22 process then Ektaprint 2/3 paper process. Then, in our world, things changed to C-41 process with Kodak VPSII, then VPSIII, and finally Portra 160 NC in the late 1990s (?). As a QC guy I sat in on maybe 6 or 8 trade trials of new films or papers, typically accompanied by 8 or 10 film and emulsion engineers from the manufacturers. They would bring test samples for us to process (lots of continous wedges as well as images for us to print, with them consulting on the color balancing), as well as film that we had shot and they had processed. They would bring their own prints of these as well as asking us to match those prints. Everything that was processed was run along with control strips in well-controlled processes.

By the time Portra came out virtually all of the color issues were taken care of. Let me emphasize again that I am talking strictly about portrait work under proper electronic flash; I cannot speak about other types of lighting nor about flowers/foliage, etc.

The company had a couple thousand full-time studios across the US, and we saw virtually every sort of complexion and probably millions of outfits similar to what the OP showed. Granted we could not know exactly what these SHOULD look like, but we had an unconditional "satisfaction guaranteed" policy so if any customer was not happy with the color reproduction they could get a replacement or refund. Now, if there were any specific color problems these would generally make their way back to the QC department, which had lines communication with the manufacturers, mainly via the TSR (tech service rep). (We were trusted enough by Kodak, Fuji, and Konica that they would have a tech rep in our facility by the next day if we so requested.)

At any rate, by the time Portra 160 NC came out, there were virtually NO color issues with any fabric that we specifically tested with, nor with various Easter dresses or the like that company employees would bring in to compare vs actual prints.

Again, these comparisons were done in proper color booths at about 4200K. (They don't really change, colorwise, going to 5500K, provided that the lights have a full spectral makeup.) These are my own personal observations. Fwiw I, and everyone dealing with critical color had been tested with the Munsell (I forget the number) hue test.

This is my own experience.

With respect to scanners, I would say that IF the scanner was able to match the spectral sensitivities of the pro papers of the day, then the scanner SHOULD BE able to produce a fairly easy to correct image file. If the scanner does NOT match this response (probably virtually none do) then more elaborate corrections are needed. These would have to deal with effects between colors. For example, if the sensor reading cyan dye (in the film) also sees some magenta dye, then the reading must be corrected by subtracting a portion of the reading in proportion to the amount of the interfering dye (magenta). So each of the color readings might have to be corrected for some possible interference by the other two dyes. (This is explained in more detail by Giorgianni in his book, and in fact is the same principle used by the orange mask in color neg films.)

Earlier I suggested using a profile-making package to make a scanner profile. Although it seems possible to calculate corrections (per previous paragraph) it would require knowledge about the specific interactions. A manufacturer more than likely has this sort of knowledge. The profile-making package, on the other hand, can look at a large number of color samples then directly make the appropriate corrections.
 

Mr Bill

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Something worth mentioning about "color matching," meaning the real object vs a photographic print, is that these usually are spectrally different. The C.S. McCamy paper I referenced, "A Color-Renditon Chart," seems to still be on the RIT website, and can be found with a search for same. This paper shows spectral graphs of patches on the Macbeth Color checker, as well as some of the real-world objects they tried to mimick.

Many (most?) of the readers here know that color films are (typically) made up with only 3 color dyes. Same with the color print papers. The intention is for the 3-color dye image to "stimulate" the human eye in the same manner as the real object does. Even though they are spectrally different. This is usually possible to do under some given viewing light. But... if the viewing light is then changed, often the exact match is lost.

What we see, looking at most things (unless they give off their own light) is a combination of the spectral output of the light and the spectral reflectance of the object, whether it be a real object or a photographic print of the object. Now, these are seldom identical, spectrally, but they don't have to be. Since the human eye has (mainly) 3 sensing functions, loosely known as red, green, and blue, it will suffice to push against, or simulate each of these sensors to the same extent. So if this can be done, then the human eye cannot tell these things apart; they are then a visual match. But... if the viewing light is changed, spectrally, then the match is likely lost.

So if we want to say if a print has the right color, or not, we probably need to specify what the viewing lamp is.
 

Mr Bill

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See my rather lengthy post on the issue. It's for instance very likely that the saturation cost of representing an intense violet using a cyan and magenta dye (e.g. in RA4 paper) will result in a disappointingly unsaturated violet color.
Yes, this is a good point. Color papers work by absorbing colors from the viewing light. "White" light reaches the face of the print and then travels thru the dye layers. The dye blocks some of the light going in. The remaining light then hits the white paper base and is reflected back, again passing through the dye layers.

So one can see that "white" on the print means that no dye is present. If we want to have some color there needs to be some dye present (it will absorb some amount of some color).

If one wants a stronger, more saturated color, one must have more dye, absorbing more of the light. So it seems clear that a conventional color print CANNOT have strong color saturation in light parts of the print. Only the darker areas can have strong colors. But this is not usually a problem because... the same thing happens to reflective objects in the scene. They follow the same rules - in order for them to be color-saturated they must also absorb a lot of a certain color. So they can only be saturated by getting darker.

Anyone who has photographed fireworks, or perhaps colored lights at a carnival, etc., might now realize why this can be difficult. The real fireworks have no problem making a bright red streak. And red lights on a carnival ride can easily make a bright, saturated red color. But on a color print you can only get this saturation by letting the print get darker. So it can be a fine line to walk, letting the print form enough dyes (magenta and yellow) to get a somewhat saturated red color, but still maintaining the impression that these are bright.
 

koraks

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Yes, value/ lightness also plays a role. But I was referring to actual chroma, in terms of the distance of the hue from the center of a color circle (the center being neutral grey, or rather the axis ranging from neutral white to neutral black). The handprint.com website is really useful for laypeople like myself in explaining the saturation cost issue. The underlying physics are not (barely) explored; I don't think it's directly related to dye density issues. The net result is that a violet made by a single high-chroma violet dye will have a higher chroma than a violet compounded from equally high-chroma cyan and magenta. This is a separate issue from how saturated colors look in relation to optical density. This is also/mostly a perceptual issue, since a high-density, high-chroma hue will be just as 'saturated' as a medium-density, high-chroma hue But the latter will seem more saturated to the human eye because of our inherent difficulties in hue and chroma differentiations in both high and low densities. There's an optimum density at which chroma appears the highest to the human observer. This is the dye/pigment density as a printer you aim for when creating a color set. The pure C, M and Y densities in color papers are most likely close to or exactly on these optimum L values to maximize subjective chroma.
 

pentaxuser

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I am not Steven Lee and it's not my problem but from what I have read so far there may be no solution to his problem short of taking pictures digitally? Is that correct? If it isn't correct then is there a collective summary we can come up with in respect of what he can try to do to cure or improve the situation?

pentaxuser
 

koraks

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is there a collective summary we can come up with in respect of what he can try to do to cure or improve the situation?

Sure:

you've hit upon an incredibly complex topic, and to cut matters short: you're probably never going to find out what's happening.

Any further summary would involve a (re)treatment of the subject matter @Mr Bill and I have discussed in some depth.

On topics where nuance is the essence, summarizing doesn't always help much.

If you feel a better summary is necessary, I'd suggest writing one.
 

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I am not Steven Lee and it's not my problem but from what I have read so far there may be no solution to his problem short of taking pictures digitally? Is that correct? If it isn't correct then is there a collective summary we can come up with in respect of what he can try to do to cure or improve the situation?

Use another film (with different quirks)?
 

MattKing

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Mr Bill

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The handprint.com website is really useful for laypeople like myself in explaining the saturation cost issue. The underlying physics are not (barely) explored; I don't think it's directly related to dye density issues. The net result is that a violet made by a single high-chroma violet dye will have a higher chroma than a violet compounded from equally high-chroma cyan and magenta.
Ahh ok I see what you're saying. I don't know much about the painting world but this sounds sensible to me.

It's a fundamentally different situation from conventional color papers where the color gamut is limited by the 3 dyes.
 

Mr Bill

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Hi, I'd guess this is basically an issue with your scanning, but I guess it really depends on how one wants to define the "problem" and its related conditions.

To elaborate, if one defines the response of your digital camera as "ideal" then clearly the film is the problem.

Alternatively if one defines optical printing to one of the historical kodak pro papers from say, a dozen years ago, as "ideal" then most likely the digital camera would be seen as the problem. (This is the camp that I'm in.)
 

DREW WILEY

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It's not only possible, but an inescapable fact, that all kinds of specific hues fall outside the gamut of every color film ever invented. No "perfect" film exists or ever will. And colors which look a certain way to our own eyes don't necessarily look the same to film. And seemingly similar colors, to us, in nature, versus artificially dyed fabrics or plastics, for example, often turn out differently rendered on film. That's especially the case with violet and purple hues.

And digital cameras being an objective reference? - get real. They have all kinds of their own problems.

I've already posted many many times about color temp issues with color neg films and the need for balancing filtration under certain predictable circumstances. But that's just one aspect. Films like Portra (for "Portrait") are deliberately manufactured with pleasing skintone reproduction as a priority. But that occurs at the expense of certain other hue categories, which cannot be so distinctly resolved.

Actual dye chemistry in relation to photo products is a highly specialized field involving decades of not only theoretical science, but a lot of sheer trial and error learning. If someone here has all the answers, then I'm sure Kodak or Fuji would hire you in a heartbeat. But what I do know is that any decent watercolorist can mix complex hues in half a minute which no film, paper, or digital device ever invented is capable of yet. As Clint Eastwood famously once said in a movie, "A man has to learn his limitations". And color photography is all about managing specific parameters and limitations intelligently.

Actual color printing is an added topic that I can't go into in depth here. I'll just remark that, at this very moment, I have an RA4 print sitting on my darkroom desk with deep rich fully-saturated violet in it, at the same time as vivid clean turquoise, true deep blue, accurate shades of yellow and reddish brown. That was taken with Ektar, and printed on Fujiflex. It would have been impossible using Portra or inkjet printed, or even using a photofinisher grade RA4 paper. And hypothetical digital post-saturation would have just exaggerated whatever was there to begin with, and not rendered those specific hues cleanly and distinctly.

But a lot goes into this decades of color printing experience in fact, so you can't just run out and buy a certain film, and think you've solved everything. But you can and should realize that Kodak deliberately still offers a distinct selection of color neg films for a real reason, yet none of these films are ideal for every situation.
 
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Mr Bill

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Here's a funny anecdote: I was discussing issues along these lines with an all-analog color printer and photographer couple a few months ago. We came to talk about the choice for film (mostly Ektar I think they use for color) and paper (Kodak Endura, probably now switching to Fuji) for their work. They were adamant in their assertion that it was just not possible to accurately capture certain hues from nature (especially plant dyes, coincidentally) using digital technology. That's why they stick to film and paper. I'm skeptical, and I think it also has something to do with not being capable or willing to relearn color reproduction in the digital domain.
I would also disagree with their assertion "it was just not possible..." but... perhaps the digital cameras they have tried were not capable in specific situations.

Here's another anecdote: on another forum one member stated that he had set up a prism to spread sunlight into a spectrum. Then he photographed it with a handful of his digital cameras. He says that none of them could record the spectral "yellow" which he himself could clearly see.

Of course I was skeptical and sorta tried it myself, but using a CD vs a lamp filament. This is pretty easy to do, and I think some of the people in this thread will be a little surprised if they tried it.
 

laser

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In designing the original KODAK Portra Films (2000) a great deal of effort was spent on the color reproduction of the difficult colors mentioned including UK Bluebells. Please realize that this film was intended to be printed on Kodak Professional Portra and Supra Papers. Since that time the industry has moved to scanning negatives and printing using a wide range of workflows. As a result compromises may have been made so photographs look good with a wide range of workflow components. The result is that current Porta Films work well but it is not possible to get the absolute best results when using dissimilar components. That said Portra Films are likely to yield the best color reproduction of difficult colors. By design, Portra is much better than films that preceded it.

Bob Shanebrook
www.makingKODAKfilm.com
 

Ben 4

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As a lay reader and mostly b&W printer, I am humbled by the knowledge and intellectual generosity of those who have contributed here. Very impressive discussion folks!
 
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