Is goerz Syntor any good for landscapes?

[baachitraka]

I came across this lens perhaps not for very high price but I did not buy it yet. Is it like Dogmar or any better?

 

[Ian Grant]

The Syntor is a Dialyte like the Dogmar, so quite low in contrast. I did some comparison tests with a Dagor, Tessar, and Ihagee-Goerz (dialyte) lenses, all in excellent condition, a few years ago. As expected the Dagor with only 2 internal air/glass surfaces had excellent contrast, there was a drop with the Tessar with it's 4 internal air/glass surfaces, and the dialyte had a very significant drop in contrast, with its 6 internal air glass surfaces.

Ian

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Basically it are the same lenses, and quite sensitive to flare (Celor, Syntor, Dogmar, Artar, Tenastigmat).
You can't go wrong with a Dagor.

 

[Ian Grant]

It's worth saying that when uncoated Dialyte lenses were common photography was very different, exposures were not like the minimal ones we can use today with light meters. Films or plates were given what we would think was over exposure and processed to much higher contrasts, this helped overcome some of the lower contrast lens issues, and the papers of that era matched the negatives.

The Leica and a need to optimise exposure and development to get decent results from 35mm film revolutionised techniques and the way we all work now. The Hans Windisch book "Die Neue Foto Schule" is the New Testament of Modern Photography. Of course by the time Windisch wrote his first edition, there were also Contax and Exacta 35mm cameras, and plenty of adverts for Gossen meters.

Luckily it was also published in English as well. My German copy is a 1944 edition, my first English copy 1938. I have a later 1956 2nd updated Edition of Hans Windisch "The Manual of Modern Photography - The Technique" essentially the post WWII version..

Over the years I've read a lot of similar books but Hans Windisch was way ahead in his approach.

Ian

 

[baachitraka]

For the current material, techniques and practices this Syntor would produce low contrast negatives? I am interested in portraits and may develop the negatives with Rodinal (perhaps some other dev if that provides a kick to the contrast).

 

[Ian Grant]

What focal length is the lens ? I do use dialytes but my 203mm Ektars are coated, I tried a Rodenstock Eurynar but the low contrast makes it difficult to use.

Ian

 

[JPD]

I get good contrast with Dogmar and black and white, and it's a very sharp lens. The Syntor is an older version and a quality lens. Use it with a sun shade.

American Goerz catalog from 1915. The lenses are the same as the german ones.

https://www.cameraeccentric.com/static/img/pdfs/goerz_4.pdf

 

[Ian Grant]

I maybe a little harsh when it comes to uncoated Dialytes, and low contrast, the best are definitely very sharp. A good lens hood will help, better still a Compendium style adjustable bellows lens hood will be the most effective.

Personally for portraits I'd go for a Cooke triplet design (or Tessar), I had superb results when using a Rolleicord and Triotar, these days I have 150mm & 210mm Geronars, both Cooke triplet type lenses. I also have some TT&H Cooke triplets on reflex cameras, that I can also use on my two Speed Graphics. Failing that I'd use a Tessar or type lens.

What am I really saying, given a choice I would not use my 203mm f7.7 Ektars for portraits (coated Dialytes) they are very sharp lenses, my next altenative is my 210mm f5.6 Symmar S, but no I'd go for a Congo/Osaka 210mm f6.3 this is the Japanese version of the Commercial Ektar, which Kodak soldtoCongo.

Finally, the simplest design is the Cooke Triplet Geronar. These are all budget lenses.

Ian

 

[JPD]

It seems that the good dialytes are sharper and have more even sharpness than the Tessar at large apertures. I'd say that a 6,8/135mm Syntor would be excellent already at f:12,5 for landscapes, while a Tessar would have to be stopped down to f:18 or f:25.

baachitraka, if the Syntor is in a AGC self-cocking Ibso shutter with air brake, be aware that these shutter often have problems. The Syntor is a quality lens but slow (6,8) to keep the price down, and often put in cheaper shutters like the AGC Ibso. Good value when new, but not much so today. You can find the Syntor in Compur sometimes.

There is a Certo 9x12 camera with a 6,3/13,5cm Dogmar in Compur on German Ebay for €120, but you can negotiate the price. It's the Dogmar I have, and it takes 29mm slip-on filters and shade, easy to find on Ebay.

Scan of a print. I used the Dogmar on a 6,5x9 camera. The darkness and bright lights made a good test for flare and contrast, and while there is some flare it looks good.

 

[baachitraka]

It is looking not so bad but the pneumatic shutter could be a problem

 

[Ian Grant]

It seems that the good dialytes are sharper and have more even sharpness than the Tessar at large apertures. I'd say that a 6,8/135mm Syntor would be excellent already at f:12,5 for landscapes, while a Tessar would have to be stopped down to f:18 or f:25.

baachitraka, if the Syntor is in a AGC self-cocking Ibso shutter with air brake, be aware that these shutter often have problems. The Syntor is a quality lens but slow (6,8) to keep the price down, and often put in cheaper shutters like the AGC Ibso. Good value when new, but not much so today. You can find the Syntor in Compur sometimes.

There is a Certo 9x12 camera with a 6,3/13,5cm Dogmar in Compur on German Ebay for €120, but you can negotiate the price. It's the Dogmar I have, and it takes 29mm slip-on filters and shade, easy to find on Ebay.

Scan of a print. I used the Dogmar on a 6,5x9 camera. The darkness and bright lights made a good test for flare and contrast, and while there is some flare it looks good.

€120 is quite expensive for a 9x12 camera with a slow f6.8 Dogmar lens, there was a f4.5 Dagmar as well, also it's a 135mm lens. The OP is looking to shoot portraits and a 150mm lens might be better, some cameras came with a choice of 135mm or 150mm.

You are right that a good Dialyte has better edge sharpness than a Tessar at around a stop wider, but unlike landscapes where usually we want good overall sharpness, with portraits edge softness at wider apertures can be beneficial.

I notice when searching eBay.co.uk if I select UK only listings prices are reasonable even the BIN (Buy it now) listings, as soon as I select EU similar cameras are listed at much higher prices more than double in most cases, the cost of postage UK to EU is only very slightly more than internal UK postage.

There's a Rodenstock 9x12 camera (Welta) with a 135mm f4.5 Eurynar listed at the moment, these are nice cameras. The screens on all pre-WWII camera are dim, I replace them in my cameras, and having a f4.5 lens compared to f6.8 makes a significant difference too.

Ian

 

[baachitraka]

I presume they can be cleaned...I did not expect Eurynar can go for that high price.

 

[JPD]

€120 is quite expensive for a 9x12 camera with a slow f6.8 Dogmar lens, there was a f4.5 Dagmar as well, also it's a 135mm lens. The OP is looking to shoot portraits and a 150mm lens might be better, some cameras came with a choice of 135mm or 150mm.

Yes, it is a little expensive, but it has the "make offer" option. The camera has been listed on Ebay for years, so maybe the seller would accept to sell it for less. I don't remember what I paid for mine, but I bought it because of its size. It can easily be mounted on a Voigtländer Avus 6,5x9 or with a bayonet on the Bergheil 6,5x9 and can use the same filters and shade as the 4,5/105 Heliar. Also, many slower lenses are better corrected than the faster ones, but I'm not sure how it is with the Dogmar.

I presume they can be cleaned...I did not expect Eurynar can go for that high price.

Many dialytes can be screwed apart so you can clean all glass surfaces. I could do that with the 4,5/135 and 3,5/150 Eurynar, but not with the 5,4/135 version. I have one 5,4 Eurynar with haze inside that can't be cleaned. Just be sure that the lenses face the right way. I took pictures when I cleaned the Eurynars. Here is one of them I still have saved:

Before you buy an uncoated dialyte study the photos the seller provides so it hasn't got of "cleaning marks" (minor scratches) that could lower the contrast further.

Other classic dialytes are the Steinheil Unofokal, Leitmeyr Sytar, Friedrich Coronar, ICA Litonar, Meyer Helioplan and Veraplan, and Schneider Doppel-Anastigmat Isconar/Jsconar (The name Isconar was later used for simple triplets, but then not called Doppel-Anastigmat).

Some can have rare filter sizes, like the 4,5/135 Unofokal that takes 36mm push-on filters, but they may have to be modified to sit straight because they will touch the speed setting wheel on the Compur. The 4,5/135 Dogmar and Eurynar take the common 37mm filters, so they are safe bets.

 

[Ian Grant]

View attachment 321334
I presume they can be cleaned...I did not expect Eurynar can go for that high price.

I hadn't seen that one, the lens on this one shows a lot less wear to the shutter and clean glass. You should be able to find a camera in much better condition, at a reasonable price.

Here in the UK I would now buy cameras like these at a Camera Fair, or I know two traders who have market stalls. One at a weekly street market, the other in a covered market hall (open 6 days a week), both sell at very reasonable prices.

Ian

 

[JPD]

I hadn't seen that one, the lens on this one shows a lot less wear to the shutter and clean glass. You should be able to find a camera in much better condition, at a reasonable price.

That's a good one, and with the 4,5/135 Eurynar that takes the easy to find 37mm filters/lens hood.

 

[Ian Grant]

That's a good one, and with the 4,5/135 Eurynar that takes the easy to find 37mm filters/lens hood.

The camera also takes one of the more common fit plate holders, which is also important.

Ian

 

[baachitraka]

I hadn't seen that one, the lens on this one shows a lot less wear to the shutter and clean glass. You should be able to find a camera in much better condition, at a reasonable price.

Here in the UK I would now buy cameras like these at a Camera Fair, or I know two traders who have market stalls. One at a weekly street market, the other in a covered market hall (open 6 days a week), both sell at very reasonable prices.

Ian

thing that is attractive is the focal length which is 16.5cm f/4.5 but other than that the camera itself need a good cleaning.

 

[JPD]

thing that is attractive is the focal length which is 16.5cm f/4.5 but other than that the camera itself need a good cleaning.

I think it's a 10x15 camera. Are you looking for a camera to use, or do you already have a LF camera and just want a classic lens?

 

[baachitraka]

I maybe a little harsh when it comes to uncoated Dialytes, and low contrast, the best are definitely very sharp. A good lens hood will help, better still a Compendium style adjustable bellows lens hood will be the most effective.

Personally for portraits I'd go for a Cooke triplet design (or Tessar), I had superb results when using a Rolleicord and Triotar, these days I have 150mm & 210mm Geronars, both Cooke triplet type lenses. I also have some TT&H Cooke triplets on reflex cameras, that I can also use on my two Speed Graphics. Failing that I'd use a Tessar or type lens.

What am I really saying, given a choice I would not use my 203mm f7.7 Ektars for portraits (coated Dialytes) they are very sharp lenses, my next altenative is my 210mm f5.6 Symmar S, but no I'd go for a Congo/Osaka 210mm f6.3 this is the Japanese version of the Commercial Ektar, which Kodak soldtoCongo.

Finally, the simplest design is the Cooke Triplet Geronar. These are all budget lenses.

Ian

Without much experiments I just want to decide on a lens, perhaps couple of good lenses. With that may I ask about Meyer Görlitz Ihagee Anastigmat Trioplan for portraits not just faces but also trees and something very close and isolated?

 

[baachitraka]

I think it's a 10x15 camera. Are you looking for a camera to use, or do you already have a LF camera and just want a classic lens?

I have a 10x15 camera with dagor 168mm and film holders (10x15) with sheaths and with that couple of other dagor lenses with smaller focal lengths. Sadly all the shutter are pneumatic and need CLA. But the bellows are tight and glass is very clean. Who knows, one day I may get a 4x5.

For development, I got some plastic pipes from the hardware stores and it kind of works both for film and paper. Right now, I try to score some good lens that have some unique characters.

=== this I want to do it later===
I have little knowledge on shutters sizes, instead of pneumatic I can look for a rim or dial type compur to replace the existing ones.

 

[Ian Grant]

Without much experiments I just want to decide on a lens, perhaps couple of good lenses. With that may I ask about Meyer Görlitz Ihagee Anastigmat Trioplan for portraits not just faces but also trees and something very close and isolated?

The Trioplan is a Cooke Triplet, personally I like them for portraits, they are as sharp as Tessar and Dialyte lens stopped down but softer at the edges at wider apertures. The Meyer Trioplan lenses for SLR camera fetch high prices, as do longer FL versions for LF cameras.

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

=== this I want to do it later===
I have little knowledge on shutters sizes, instead of pneumatic I can look for a dial or rim type compurs.

I have posted the details on this Forum, but this has some information on Deckel and Gauthier shutters. Luckily they standardised as Gauthier and Zeiss were shareholders of Deckel. By the late 1920s Zeiss had complete control of Deckel and Gauthier and rationalised the Compur shutter sizes, it was costly making so many variations of the Dial Set Compurs, changing the mounting threads. Gauthier shutters also changed to match.

Some years ago I made a list of 9x12 cameras and their lenses from eBay, not one had a 165mm lens, only a few had 150mm lenses, the rest were 135mm.

Ian

 

[baachitraka]

I have posted the details on this Forum, but this has some information on Deckel and Gauthier shutters. Luckily they standardised as Gauthier and Zeiss were shareholders of Deckel. By the late 1920s Zeiss had complete control of Deckel and Gauthier and rationalised the Compur shutter sizes, it was costly making so many variations of the Dial Set Compurs, changing the mounting threads. Gauthier shutters also changed to match.

Some years ago I made a list of 9x12 cameras and their lenses from eBay, not one had a 165mm lens, only a few had 150mm lenses, the rest were 135mm.

Ian

Thanks. I will pick a vernier caliper and measure those diameters. I am bit excited...

 

[Ian Grant]

With Compound and Ibso shutters (also Bausch & Lomb) usually just a quick clean and light lubrication of the pistons is enough to restore them to smooth running..

Ian

 

[baachitraka]

I will check this evening and asked about the cost of CLA which comes for €50 for a shutter.