Good job David, very good job - I would like to wish you some others would end to "blame" yourPlease see revised post #62, above, as I had made an error with defining the WORKING SOLUTION. It is now stated correctly. - David Lyga
Sorry Rudeofus I missunderstood your post! Perhaps I should give me more time and would allways read the last sentence of a post.Here we have a case of David Lyga stating, that he printed these negatives optically and had no problems with color cross over, and experts stating that "cross over will be so bad that it'll take a long time on the computer to fix it". If it takes you "a lot of time at the computer" to fix color cross over, then you're doing it wrong. To be honest, I'd rather trust David here.
Good job David, very good job - I would like to wish you some others would end to "blame" your
"special" approach.
!
Right : PET is working good! Rollei use it - and stated from what advantage PET for developer is
(NOT TO ALL KIND OF CHEMS BE AWARE)
But the "key" with PET from the supermarket is : You shouldn't use the thin-walled PET bottlest !
with regards
David, as I have said in the past, your process is not the problem per se. If someone tries it and it works for them that's fine. The problem is that you never warn people that this is not the proper process and as such may not give expected results. Lack of such warnings can imply to many that it gives proper results which tests have shown it does not, despite what you see. Since you don't warn them, others who have knowledge of the critical nature of the C-41 process feel the need to do so in the interest of the photographic community.
That is it! I have CONSISTENT results, costs are minuscule, and, although Kodak would probably relegate the soul of Spanish Inquisitor Tomas de Torquemada to deal with my heresy, I have the prints, beautiful prints, to prove that my deviance and treachery never cost this planet a soul, (or, monetarily, never a sou)
Here is David's explicit statement, that his process does not conform to the standard process for C-41 negative film. It appears in the first port of this thread, for all to see:
If you want to see something more explicit than what he wrote: your post with a more mundane warning will remain firmly attached to this thread, for all to see. I am convinced that David will suffer horribly and weep uncontrollably for months, because some folks here wouldn't touch his process with a ten foot pole or find some other way to express their rejection of it.
BTW: some people did do sensitometric tests with David's process and found some deviations, as documented here in this thread. They also found comparable deviations with all other available C-41 formulas, so don't ring the bells of victory yet.
Good luck using digital tools to deal with substantial colour crossover.
And prepare to spend a lot of time at the computer.
I probably should have put more emphasis on the word "substantial".Here we have a case of David Lyga stating, that he printed these negatives optically and had no problems with color cross over, and experts stating that "cross over will be so bad that it'll take a long time on the computer to fix it". If it takes you "a lot of time at the computer" to fix color cross over, then you're doing it wrong. To be honest, I'd rather trust David here.
As any of us has dabbled in C-41 processing knows, capacity is all over the brand ball park. Many say 8 per qt/liter. Then there is the matter of increased time to extend capacity
"Perfection is the enemy of good enough."
Thanks for posting this. Just a few questions. I plan on purchasing some kodak chemicals to last for a few years.
Is it the LORR or standard, or does it matter?
How long do the developer chemicals last? Could these last 10+ years with decent results? It is my understanding that bleach lasts practically forever but the developer chemicals go bad. I am wondering if it is not better to purchase cd-4 and mix homebrew?
What is your methodology for ra-4?
I have a feeling this method will yield better results that are cost effective compared to standard kits.
Thanks for posting this. Just a few questions. I plan on purchasing some kodak chemicals to last for a few years.
Is it the LORR or standard, or does it matter?
How long do the developer chemicals last? Could these last 10+ years with decent results? It is my understanding that bleach lasts practically forever but the developer chemicals go bad. I am wondering if it is not better to purchase cd-4 and mix homebrew?
Ähhm just read your post again CD4........it isn't avaible from others than liquit AFAIK!
Because it is a complexity chemical structure for its own (no raw chem)!
Does anyone can say how long CD4 can be stored max. without a noticable lost of its characteristics?
with regards
That is not a "warning" in the sense one would expect to see. I have used Kodak standard chemistry and have gotten very consistent sensitometric results. I have not tried David's method but have tried various other non-standard methods including Patrick Dignan's divided, room temperature developer and got nothing but low contrast and crossover and wide variations among different films. So this is enough to convince me, along with PE's knowledge of the critical nature of the C-41 process that more descriptive warnings are in order in lieu of actual test results. David is the one promoting this so I would expect him to do the warning so others don't have to.
I agree that negs with color crossover can be difficult/impossible to print optically, but once you go the hybrid route, corrections are really trivial and nothing to be afraid of. I have done RGB curve corrections with GIMP on linux 20+ years ago. Yes, you read that number 20 correctly.However, if the deviation from "correct" is in the nature of a colour crossover, correcting the problem can vary from being relatively simple to being incredibly difficult if not practically impossible, and the difficulty may be functionally different, depending on the subject and the amount that the importance of colour fidelity may vary across the different parts of the subject.
I understand the need for an explicit warning in all these instances, in which physical harm can result from sloppily or blindly following a procedure. David's warning is entirely appropriate for the risk people face when following his modified process. If people don't understand what he means, then losing a roll of film should be their least concern.That is not a "warning" in the sense one would expect to see.
Mr. Bill : if I ever found a lab in the past (1980 -1998) with just a "near by" workflow you describedThere really is not much leeway here with respect to the process specs; the so-called capacity is really more of: "how far off is it allowed to get before it bothers you?" So Kodak, as the designer of the process, takes a fairly conservative approach; some of the aftermarket suppliers rely on the frugal nature of their customers, who seem to not be bothered, or even notice, the difference.
Yes, I think the main thing here is, what does "good enough" mean?
David hasn't said what sort of thing he photographs nor how finicky he is, so it would be hard to judge. A lot of things, especially scenic shots, have a lot of leeway for "interpretation;" how can one look at a landscape and say, "oh the change in color of foliage looks like a color cross?" But if you shoot certain sorts of things, say products, or one of my specialties, studio portraits, this can be real touchy. Depending on how finicky you are. If you were perfectly satisfied with the quality of mini-labs in their heyday, circa 1990s, then you're unlikely to notice color crosses; good quality portrait work is whole 'nuther animal. (The place I worked also owned a large 1-hour lab chain; they set up a number of attached portrait studios as a trial, but could never get what I'd call high quality. Note that I had some involvement in this.)
The rest of this post details some of my experience with the portrait chain, going into how we tested for film/paper compatibility. No need to read further unless you have specific interest. It's mainly to demonstrate how some users can be more finicky.
I've spent a lot of years working with high volume processing for a large portrait chain. On the general topic of color crosses, this was a major issue for us for many years. As Kodak pro color neg films, the only thing we ever used, went through different generations - VPSII, then VPSIII, and the first Portra 160 - we would thoroughly test each one, printing one the appropriate professional paper. Since portraits were our business, this was a major part of our testing. We'd shoot a wide range of exposures (with a large number of studios, you always have someone screwing up the exposure) using models with a variety of complexions and hair color. Then they were all hand color-balanced (optical printing) to match the skin tones to within about 1cc color. (This testing regimen went on until about a dozen years ago, by which time we were fully digital.) One main requirement was that color crosses across the skin tones - shadow to highlights - had to be minimal. A common problem in the earlier years, depending also on the paper used, was that the brightest skin highlights would go "cool," meaning a bluish or cyan tone. In later years, even across paper brands (still using the pro portrait papers, though) these color crosses were minimal - on the order of 1 cc or less. Which we judged that no normal customer would see.
Now, when we did these tests, all of our processors were pretty well nailed down with respect to control strip plots. So I truly do not know how the test result would be with an out-of-spec film process. But I do have a sense of what the control plots will do if when the temperature control goes off, or a replenisher pump fails. The "speed" between the color layers (c, m, and y) will shift, as well as the relative contrast levels. So I am pretty certain that the grey scales would not remain dead neutral. The skin tones are not "predicted" by control strips, as skin doesn't have a neutral balance on the exposure, like the control strips do. So the best way I knew to test the skin tones for color crosses was to shoot and print it. If someone has not done this I don't know how they could possibly anticipate what it would be like. (Today, with scanning the standard method, it's a different sort of game; I can't say too much about it.)
Anyway, given the difficulty we had, with the best materials and tight process controls, I cannot imagine that someone can pick some arbitrary dilution/time/temperature and match the results. My best guess is that David has more, uh, relaxed standards, or shoots subjects that don't really demand a specific sort of color reproduction - one where color "errors" don't really stand out.
I agree that negs with color crossover can be difficult/impossible to print optically, but once you go the hybrid route, corrections are really trivial and nothing to be afraid of. I have done RGB curve corrections with GIMP on linux 20+ years ago. Yes, you read that number 20 correctly.
I understand the need for an explicit warning in all these instances, in which physical harm can result from sloppily or blindly following a procedure. David's warning is entirely appropriate for the risk people face when following his modified process. If people don't understand what he means, then losing a roll of film should be their least concern.
Actually, my naked eye is quite critical and, unlike most who judge the flesh tone for accuracy, I judge medium gray, as I feel that that neutral color is the first to yield crossover results. I have to say that I am satisfied with my results and see none, or tiny, crossover. Let's be honest: With (recommended) reuse of chemistry is there not a built in deviance with color developer accuracy because the developer is partially used before new film begins its development? I do not reuse chemistry; each roll developed has new, albeit diluted, developer.My best guess is that David has more, uh, relaxed standards, or shoots subjects that don't really demand a specific sort of color reproduction - one where color "errors" don't really stand out.
Actually my naked eye is quite critical and, unlike most who judge the flesh tone for accuracy, I judge medium gray as I feel that that color is the first to yield crossover results.
Actually, my naked eye is quite critical and, unlike most who judge the flesh tone for accuracy, I judge medium gray, as I feel that that neutral color is the first to yield crossover results.
Mr. Bill : if I ever found a lab in the past (1980 -1998) with just a "near by" workflow you described
from your own experience (RESPECT!) - then I would liked to have paid the prices my labs have
allways demanted!
with regards
A single gray is not useful for determining the presence and nature of any crossover. A gray scale is what is commonly used, both for visual determination and for plotting characteristic curves. Control strips use two gray patches in the case of the HD-LD densitometer method. But a single patch tells you nothing. There must be density variations, and yes, should be perfectly neutral colors.
Thanks, but these tests were strictly to select the film/paper combinations that were acceptable to us, for typically a 2-year contract with the manufacturer. We ran a pretty large volume of work - well over a million 8x10" print units per week, so the consequences of a bad decision were pretty significant.
In actual production work, we ran with an "official limit" of +/- 5cc color; anything beyond that was supposed to be reprinted. But in reality we ran a lot closer to 2cc most of the year (in our busiest time of year this slipped a lot, and I'm sure we shipped a lot of crap, but...).
All of the work we did was our own; it was a mass-market portrait chain where all of the photographers were employees. Essentially the outfit was like a picture factory. The studios supplied the "raw materials," aka exposed film, which was then "processed" by the "factory," aka the photofinishing lab. So anyway, we didn't do outside work, except occasionally as favors.
Best to contact me directly, as I post so much I don't have time to answer all unless contacted directly.David, upthread I commented on the fact that in your original thoughts on using dilute C-41, you were using 1:15, now 1:9. You didn't respond to that.
You note here that one must have enough developer. Of course! Is this why you changed your operating ratio?
It occurred to me that if one is operating on the edge of having enough developer, the difference between tanks could matter. Larger plastic tank volumes vs. SS tanks.
Thanks!
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