Ilford HP5+ - uneven development results

Jaf-Photo · Feb 13, 2014

Bob Carnie said:
The final solution was to put in chemicals and hand agitate, as well use distilled water to allow the chemicals to flow faster then put the film on the machine.
Also I should point out we went back to the old method and years latter **knock on wood** we have had no issue

On a philosophical level, I think this implies a more severe criticism of the HP5 film. It kind of assumes that it is normal for this film type to play up in a regular development process.

Also, it would seem that you didn't find the issue and eliminate it? You probably found a work- around and then the unknown issue went away by itself?

I only say this with my experience as a sloppy developer. I occasionally lose focus and mess a film up, but I always know the second I do it, and the results are never as extreme as Thomas' uneven negs.

StoneNYC · Feb 13, 2014

Simon R Galley said:
Thanks for reply, as I said, ship it to us and we will happily check it out.

Regarding shipping, very special arrangements are made in our photo industry supply chain, in the shipments ex.factory to the country distributors, but as always storage and shipment issues can arise.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Where are the exact instructions, address, etc to ship the film.

Do you per chance check other manufacturers film issues for a fee?

I have a strange base reflection oddity (when looking at it) result on one group of films, it never affected the image but always have been curious what it was. This was on a 5 pack of Fuji Acros100, never any issues with ilford

Bob Carnie · Feb 13, 2014

I wish I could give you the exact answer.

What I do think is that it certainly is not a film issue. Master Rolls are incredibly complex issues and if there was a problem , those of us who use H5+ would be reporting the same issue.

I am not kidding about the grey background issue, When problems occurred like this for me , this is exactly how we proceeded to solve the processing issues.

good luck

Thomas Bertilsson said:
The thing that bothers me the most, Bob, after thinking about it, is:

I bought ten rolls of HP5+ in a brick. Every roll I have used from it has exhibited uneven densities. That is from using three different developers, replenished Edwal 12, replenished Xtol, and D76 1+1, some shot and processed last summer, and some this winter.
All of the other films I've processed in the last five years have been fine. Except those ten.
Then I get another brick of HP5+ and try developing using exactly the same method as the ones that are bad, and the roll comes out perfect. I used the same D76 as the ones that are bad, the same stop, and the same fix. I agitated exactly the same way, and presoaked for two minutes.

That beats logic in my opinion. How is it possible that with those ten rolls, and only those ten rolls, the results were bad, but with every other roll since I've had perfect results? It's just too strange.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 13, 2014

Bob Carnie said:
I wish I could give you the exact answer.

What I do think is that it certainly is not a film issue. Master Rolls are incredibly complex issues and if there was a problem , those of us who use H5+ would be reporting the same issue.

I am not kidding about the grey background issue, When problems occurred like this for me , this is exactly how we proceeded to solve the processing issues.

good luck

I have a feeling my situation might be unique, and I too don't think the problem originated with Ilford. But it can still be an issue with the film, if it was stored improperly in the distributor's or retailer's warehouse, for example. Who knows?!

Some day I will do the grey background test. Just to validate that what I do is sound process.

fotch · Feb 13, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Great idea. I'm sure Ilford is very interested in diagnosing random processing screw-ups, particularly when it comes to other manufacturers' products.

They may already do this however, I doubt that they would comment or share the results with outsiders. The old saying of "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything" would apply. JMHO

Bob Carnie · Feb 13, 2014

Jaf-Photo said:
On a philosophical level, I think this implies a more severe criticism of the HP5 film. It kind of assumes that it is normal for this film type to play up in a regular development process.

Also, it would seem that you didn't find the issue and eliminate it? You probably found a work- around and then the unknown issue went away by itself?

I only say this with my experience as a sloppy developer. I occasionally lose focus and mess a film up, but I always know the second I do it, and the results are never as extreme as Thomas' uneven negs.

I disagree I totally do not think this is a problem with HP5 film.

In our case the road ruts ** less development in the middle of the film which then would print darker** was happening across the board with all films.
We were processing all brands and still process all brands.
We stopped production of film for a couple of months around year 2006 because of this severe issue.

Yes we solved it and yes we went back to the old methods. ( hand inversion, distilled water, immediate agitation within the first 15 seconds)
If I am doing grey background work now and I ask all my clients , we will not use the Jobo method for the first 20-30 seconds but revert to the hand inversion then go to the jobo rotation.

Our problem btw was way more severe than Thomas is showing and I truly feel his pain.

StoneNYC · Feb 13, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Great idea. I'm sure Ilford is very interested in diagnosing random processing screw-ups, particularly when it comes to other manufacturers' products.

I said FOR A FEE

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 13, 2014

StoneNYC said:
I said FOR A FEE

Stone,

Maybe start a new thread?

Ulrich Drolshagen · Feb 13, 2014

Hi Thomas,

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Here you go.

This is after I processed TMax 400 successfully, and then after I processed TMax 400 successfully - shot in the same camera, at the same time, at the same location, under the same circumstances.

Pardon dust and sloppy scans, I didn't prep the negs or do anything to them after they were scanned on 'everything auto'. Just wanted to see what was there.

as it seems you are not the only one having this kind of problems. I am suffering from it too occasionally. Look through my gallery pics closely and you will find them. Most of the time I have it only on one side of the frame but sometimes on both as with this one:

I scan my prints where the edges are burnt in quite a bit so that it's not as obvious as with your negative scans. But you can clearly see it. I do not presoak. So this can not be the source of the problem. I always thought that this may be caused by over developing the edges by additional whirls during agitation ore something like that. It never came to my mind that it would have caused by the film itself. May be I should try some Tri-X in 120 occasionally.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 13, 2014

Ulrich,

I'm not knowledgeable enough about film developing to tell whether you are having the same problem as I am.

Do you use inversion agitation? Do you agitate fairly vigorously for at least the first 30 seconds? How often do you agitate?
Those are the kinds of questions you want to ask yourself.

My guess is that you don't agitate enough, since your film is developed mostly around the edges, and less in the center. That tells me that you're not getting enough fresh developer to the center of the film developing reel.

Ulrich Drolshagen said:
Hi Thomas,

as it seems you are not the only one having this kind of problems. I am suffering from it too occasionally. Look through my gallery pics closely and you will find them. Most of the time I have it only on one side of the frame but sometimes on both as with this one:

View attachment 82240

I scan my prints where the edges are burnt in quite a bit so that it's not as obvious as with your negative scans. But you can clearly see it. I do not presoak. So this can not be the source of the problem. I always thought that this may be caused by over developing the edges by additional whirls during agitation ore something like that. It never came to my mind that it would have caused by the film itself. May be I should try some Tri-X in 120 occasionally.

Chris Lange · Feb 13, 2014

Very strange, Thomas...
I presoak, too. Never had a problem with HP5+ in either 35mm or 120...D76, Rodinal, Xtol, you name it, inversion or rotary processing.
Granted if that one example of "uneven development" you posted is an example of a "worst case scenario" I would say just forget about it and print them anyway. It's a beautiful photograph.

Bob Carnie · Feb 13, 2014

Another good example of minus development in the middle area, on a very mid tone (grey) scene.

Ulrich Drolshagen said:
Hi Thomas,

as it seems you are not the only one having this kind of problems. I am suffering from it too occasionally. Look through my gallery pics closely and you will find them. Most of the time I have it only on one side of the frame but sometimes on both as with this one:

View attachment 82240

I scan my prints where the edges are burnt in quite a bit so that it's not as obvious as with your negative scans. But you can clearly see it. I do not presoak. So this can not be the source of the problem. I always thought that this may be caused by over developing the edges by additional whirls during agitation ore something like that. It never came to my mind that it would have caused by the film itself. May be I should try some Tri-X in 120 occasionally.

Shawn Dougherty · Feb 13, 2014

I changed one part of my process years ago when I experienced uneven development of 120 film using stainless tanks and reels and have never had a problem since.

I develop only half the rolls of film the tank I'm using is capable of holding; 1 reel in a 2 reel tank or 2 reels in a 4 reel tank. I use enough solution to cover the film plus a little extra to make sure any leaks don't decrease that level below the film. I use empty reels as place holders so that the reels don't slide around to much. This way, about half the tank is empty of solution and when you invert it all of the developer leaves the film and is replaced in a new position. Of course I give 4 taps to get rid of air bubbles after each round of agitation. I have never had a problem with uneven development of roll film since adopting this practice.

Hope this helps somebody.

Xmas · Feb 13, 2014

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Yes.

I temper the tank and its contents with about 72*F water. After two minutes presoak, the water comes out at about 68*F.

Then I pour in 68*F developer, and use a 68*F water bath for the developing tank, so that the entire process is as close to 68*F as possible.
If it's off by a little I don't care, like half of a degree. You are right that it doesn't make any real world difference.

But several degrees will make a difference, and if I subsequently lower a tank with 64*F developer into a 68*F water bath, the outer part of the tank will warm up and the film closest to the tank wall will develop faster than what's at the core of the tank, which in itself would lead to unevenly developed negatives.

My goal is to keep the process as consistent as possible, and as close to an ideal state as possible. I dislike slop in any process.

But, when I get home today, I will run a roll of HP5+ through without presoak. I'll start with 72*F developer, and run the process outside the water bath for the first two minutes, at which point it should be roughly 68*F. To compensate for the initial heightened temperature, I will shave a minute off the developing time.

Buy a dark bag, load the tank in living room, pour in dev at 20C in basement, invert and set the tank in a plastic basin with 20C water, add boilng water from kettle to hold the plastic basin at 20C. Keep the stop, fix, wash and clear all at 20C, in same basin, or 68F is you prefer.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 13, 2014

Xmas said:
Buy a dark bag, load the tank in living room, pour in dev at 20C in basement, invert and set the tank in a plastic basin with 20C water, add boilng water from kettle to hold the plastic basin at 20C. Keep the stop, fix, wash and clear all at 20C, in same basin, or 68F is you prefer.

That would probably work. It's a matter of timing, though. Since my chemicals are stored in 45-50 degree F temperature, they have to be warmed up, which takes a while to do.

But, again, I had no issues with the roll I processed last night, using my old method. So currently nothing is broken.

Jaf-Photo · Feb 13, 2014

Xmas said:
Buy a dark bag, load the tank in living room, pour in dev at 20C in basement, invert and set the tank in a plastic basin with 20C water, add boilng water from kettle to hold the plastic basin at 20C. Keep the stop, fix, wash and clear all at 20C, in same basin, or 68F is you prefer.

Another variant is to use a double bath, i.e. place the tub with water at process temperature in a larger tub with water a couple degrees above processing temperature. The outside water will compensate for the heat loss in the process tub.

I started doing this for C41, as it could keep the temperature constant at 100F for about half an hour. I also do it for B&W now, which is expecially good for elevated temp development.

MattKing · Feb 13, 2014

Thomas Bertilsson said:
The thing that bothers me the most, Bob, after thinking about it, is:

I bought ten rolls of HP5+ in a brick. Every roll I have used from it has exhibited uneven densities. That is from using three different developers, replenished Edwal 12, replenished Xtol, and D76 1+1, some shot and processed last summer, and some this winter.
All of the other films I've processed in the last five years have been fine. Except those ten.
Then I get another brick of HP5+ and try developing using exactly the same method as the ones that are bad, and the roll comes out perfect. I used the same D76 as the ones that are bad, the same stop, and the same fix. I agitated exactly the same way, and presoaked for two minutes.

That beats logic in my opinion. How is it possible that with those ten rolls, and only those ten rolls, the results were bad, but with every other roll since I've had perfect results? It's just too strange.

It is possible if something happened to that brick, and that brick alone.

Shipping and handling come immediately to mind, although something in your storage regime could be responsible.

Xmas · Feb 13, 2014

Thomas Bertilsson said:
That would probably work. It's a matter of timing, though. Since my chemicals are stored in 45-50 degree F temperature, they have to be warmed up, which takes a while to do.

But, again, I had no issues with the roll I processed last night, using my old method. So currently nothing is broken.

Yea your process should be ok, with Trix or HP5, but I frequently use non hardened film so need to avoid any extra baths or thermal shock.

Ulrich Drolshagen · Feb 13, 2014

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Ulrich,

I'm not knowledgeable enough about film developing to tell whether you are having the same problem as I am.

Do you use inversion agitation? Do you agitate fairly vigorously for at least the first 30 seconds? How often do you agitate?
Those are the kinds of questions you want to ask yourself.

My guess is that you don't agitate enough, since your film is developed mostly around the edges, and less in the center. That tells me that you're not getting enough fresh developer to the center of the film developing reel.

I do inversion agitation following roughly the Ilford instructions: Inversion about 10 sec every 60 seconds. Makes for about six inversions in ten seconds. I use a Jobo tank with apropriate reels. Only one reel at a time but occasionally two films on one reel. As I think about it, I can not remember dark scenes having this problem. I get this problem with my light grey scenes.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 13, 2014

MattKing said:
It is possible if something happened to that brick, and that brick alone.

Shipping and handling come immediately to mind, although something in your storage regime could be responsible.

I don't freeze my film, I keep it in the basement, which is always between 45 and 65 degrees F. All my film and paper is stored this way. It's dry down there in the summer in spite of the Minnesota humidity, as we run a dehumidifier 24/7.

I have film that's been stored a lot longer than since last summer, (three years or more), that doesn't show any of these issues, so if storage is the issue I doubt it's me.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 13, 2014

Ulrich Drolshagen said:
I do inversion agitation following roughly the Ilford instructions: Inversion about 10 sec every 60 seconds. Makes for about six inversions in ten seconds. I use a Jobo tank with apropriate reels. Only one reel at a time but occasionally two films on one reel. As I think about it, I can not remember dark scenes having this problem. I get this problem with my light grey scenes.

I have a feeling you just see it better in scenes with light subject matter (which is why Bob is suggesting photographing a single gray tone to troubleshoot developing issues).

Bob Carnie · Feb 13, 2014

Very good point

I changed to four rolls in the tank vs 8 rolls in the tank for this reason, as well I always use 1000ml of developer for each run.

Shawn Dougherty said:
I changed one part of my process years ago when I experienced uneven development of 120 film using stainless tanks and reels and have never had a problem since.

I develop only half the rolls of film the tank I'm using is capable of holding; 1 reel in a 2 reel tank or 2 reels in a 4 reel tank. I use enough solution to cover the film plus a little extra to make sure any leaks don't decrease that level below the film. I use empty reels as place holders so that the reels don't slide around to much. This way, about half the tank is empty of solution and when you invert it all of the developer leaves the film and is replaced in a new position. Of course I give 4 taps to get rid of air bubbles after each round of agitation. I have never had a problem with uneven development of roll film since adopting this practice.

Hope this helps somebody.

Ulrich Drolshagen · Feb 13, 2014

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I have a feeling you just see it better in scenes with light subject matter (which is why Bob is suggesting photographing a single gray tone to troubleshoot developing issues).

Thinking about it further may be ovefilling the tank may be causing the problem. I use 100ml more than I need to avoid the annoying bubble problem 1). May be if the tank is too full, the developer can not flow far enough during an inversion to get fully exchanged in the middle of the film.

1) as a second cause of this problem I identified the use of a wetting agent in the final rinse.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 13, 2014

Ulrich Drolshagen said:
Thinking about it further may be ovefilling the tank may be causing the problem. I use 100ml more than I need to avoid the annoying bubble problem 1). May be if the tank is too full, the developer can not flow far enough during an inversion to get fully exchanged in the middle of the film.

1) as a second cause of this problem I identified the use of a wetting agent in the final rinse.

Yes, it's important to insure that the developer has the ability to move around in the tank, so filling it up too much is not a good idea.

removed account4 · Feb 14, 2014

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Yes, it's important to insure that the developer has the ability to move around in the tank, so filling it up too much is not a good idea.

its intersting that you say this thomas..
a friend who used to own one of the best custom labs in boston
used to always say that it wasnt the developer that developed the
film but all the bubbles from the tank not being completely filled
to capacity... the airspace i guess ...
its never good to overfill .. thats something a lot of people
tend to forget ...
its great to read that your film is back to normal, and what a beautiful
normal that is !

john

Ilford HP5+ - uneven development results

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