ILFOCHROME HOME-BREWED BLEACH

[DREW WILEY]

Note that my last post was seven years ago! I doubt that much Ciba paper was still any good way back then.

 

[Rudeofus]

You can use a regular paper developer to process Ilfochrome. I used Dr. Beer's formula, because it offered variation in contrast, but I saw no contrast difference between any of these different contrast versions. My impression is, that exact paper developer formula does not matter much for Ilfochrome paper, as long as you keep the process repeatable. I was able to reuse both developer and dye bleach over and over again.

In regard to the fixer, you have to be aware, that Ilfochrome dye bleach converts metallic silver to Silver Iodide, which is very hard to fix. Use a powerful fixer and/or replace fixer frequently. pH of fixer should be close to 6.5.

 

[b747jetpilot]

You can use a regular paper developer to process Ilfochrome. I used Dr. Beer's formula, because it offered variation in contrast, but I saw no contrast difference between any of these different contrast versions. My impression is, that exact paper developer formula does not matter much for Ilfochrome paper, as long as you keep the process repeatable. I was able to reuse both developer and dye bleach over and over again.

In regard to the fixer, you have to be aware, that Ilfochrome dye bleach converts metallic silver to Silver Iodide, which is very hard to fix. Use a powerful fixer and/or replace fixer frequently. pH of fixer should be close to 6.5.

thank you rudeofus; did you use any alternative bleach?

 

[Rudeofus]

thank you rudeofus; did you use any alternative bleach?

I have made some very preliminary experiments with test bleaches made from Phenazine, Nitrobenzene Sulfonic Acid Sodium Salt, Amidosulfonic Acid and various counter ions. These were not pictorial tests, but just an attempt to see, whether I could bleach a fully developed test strip. I was only able to reach full bleaching with iodide as counter anion, which supports my recommendation for very strong fixer. I have - sadly - not attempted to create any real images yet.

 

[Wayne]

Ten years later a response to your post. You mentioned that you have a list of possible dye bleach formulas and catalysts
for the Ilfochrome process. Do you have info for dev and fix part as well? I bought lots of Ilfochrome paper before
they shut everything down. I also stocked lots of chemistry but a bit worried how long it will stay good.

Alas, you are too late. Sadly, Photo Engineer is no longer with us

You can use a regular paper developer to process Ilfochrome. I used Dr. Beer's formula, because it offered variation in contrast, but I saw no contrast difference between any of these different contrast versions. My impression is, that exact paper developer formula does not matter much for Ilfochrome paper, as long as you keep the process repeatable. I was able to reuse both developer and dye bleach over and over again.

Later versions of the paper were not very responsive to variable contrast development.

In regard to the fixer, you have to be aware, that Ilfochrome dye bleach converts metallic silver to Silver Iodide, which is very hard to fix. Use a powerful fixer and/or replace fixer frequently. pH of fixer should be close to 6.5.

Rapid Fix worked fine.

 

[DREW WILEY]

It was ordinary non-hardening Ilford fix, nothing special at all. I've directly substituted them.

 

[Rudeofus]

It was ordinary non-hardening Ilford fix, nothing special at all. I've directly substituted them.

Of course you can use regular rapid fixer, if you use it single shot. One should just not assume, that Ilfochrome paper fixes similarly to other photographic papers.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I don't know why anyone would want to re-use any Ciba chem unless they were running a big replenished automated roller-transport machine. That's just looking for trouble. But it's all hypothetical now because the paper is not around anymore. And given modern hazmat standards regarding strong acids, I don't see why anyone would want to re-invent another commercial dye-bleach system, although there were several versions prior to Cibachrome, along with a parallel Kodak experiment that never got marketed. The nice thing about low volume personal use in a drum is that you could simply drain the bleach into a little bucket containing some baking soda, and it would be instantly neutralized. People who worked with large volumes in the big labs tended to suffer some horrible health consequences; I knew some of them personally.

 

[Rudeofus]

I don't know why anyone would want to re-use any Ciba chem unless they were running a big replenished automated roller-transport machine. That's just looking for trouble.

I reused all my Ilfochrome chems, and the results were nice - and affordable. I would dial in each slide with tiny test strips, after which I did the larger sized prints. 1/2 liter of process chems lasted for at least 4 pieces of 8x10" paper, plus the dozens of test strips I needed to get there. My biggest issue was during summer months, that the room temperature in my dark room was so far above 30°C, that the paper became more and more sensitive later at night.

With today's knowledge about the process, I should have used the fixer single shot, or should have mixed a better fixer.

But it's all hypothetical now because the paper is not around anymore. And given modern hazmat standards regarding strong acids, I don't see why anyone would want to re-invent another commercial dye-bleach system, although there were several versions prior to Cibachrome, along with a parallel Kodak experiment that never got marketed. The nice thing about low volume personal use in a drum is that you could simply drain the bleach into a little bucket containing some baking soda, and it would be instantly neutralized. People who worked with large volumes in the big labs tended to suffer some horrible health consequences; I knew some of them personally.

Yes, the bleach catalyst in Ilfochrome dye bleach is carcinogenic, but given its other ingredients, this is not the type of liquid you'd want to have on your hands anyway. How were these people exposed to the catalyst? Vapors? Splashes? Lab contamination?

 

[DREW WILEY]

In industrial settings the biggest risk was simply from all the acid vapors. Lungs got scarred up. Then there were secondary corrosion problems which led to massive maintenance and hazmat bills, up to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. A more sudden wake-up call was when someone would suddenly develop hyper-sensitivity to certain minor added ingredients and go into anaphylactic shock. I knew a couple of lab owners who couldn't even walk into their own buildings. But this sometimes happened even with RA4 chem. I'm have a bit of sensitivity to RA4, so load drums in the darkroom, then have a special wheeled cart with a big drum processor which I can push onto the concrete slab outdoors for actual processing, limiting my exposure to any fumes. In the sink room, I not only have a big fume hood, but a secondary fume duct that can be set directly over mixing containers. But due to the virus risk this season, I'm not going to do any color printing at all for awhile. I don't want my respiratory system irritated in the least. With a drum, one-shot-chem, and good ventilation, the acid fume risk of Ciba was easy to minimize. I can do up to 30X40 inch prints in my drum system quite efficiently per chem volume. A commercial fifty-inch wide processor containing 200 gallons of replenished bleach at a time is an entirely different story. And pro Ciba bleach was mainly conc sulfuric acid anyway. If it even a drop of it touched your skin, you'd howl with pain.

 

[Wayne]

Of course you can use regular rapid fixer, if you use it single shot. One should just not assume, that Ilfochrome paper fixes similarly to other photographic papers.

I always used it single shot. I was never happy with prints with partial reuse of the developer, although I know others were.

 

[b747jetpilot]

I always used it single shot. I was never happy with prints with partial reuse of the developer, although I know others were.

Thank you everybody for your valuable inputs!! As mentioned before I have a lot of paper (many of the big rolls) deep frozen. They should last (at least I hope) for a longer time
to come. Does any one of you could get a little bit more specific as far as developer and fixer naming and concentration goes? Like Ilford Multigrade 1+10, some mentioned Dektol ?
Ilford Hypam 1+4 or 1+10 ? At this time I'm looking for a good starting point.
Somebody mentioned that Hypo needs to be added to the Developer? For developer and fixer I am only interested in single shot use, since it is easily available.
Many thanks again for your input!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Ordinary developers don't work well with the second-generation Ilfochrome stock. You'll need to do some real homework to figure that out. The MSDS sheets give a few clues. Anyway, a masking protocol has to be learned not only for sake of contrast control but also hue correction. Ciba is a very idiosyncratic medium in terms of hue rendition. Generic developers never did work well unless one deliberately wanted a ghoulish look. I don't know how long Ciba paper will keep even frozen before crossover becomes a problem. I haven't thawed any of my last frozen stock yet, and perhaps never will. The commercial P3 chem is still probably fine. The fix was ordinary Ilford non-hardening fixer; no problem there. If you're planning to make large prints, I hope you've got an especially powerful colorhead.

 

[afriman]

I remember very well when I was "toying" with Cibachrome as a youngster. The first generation worked fine with standard b&w paper developer, but from the second generation onward it was a different story. Due to the contrast mask built into the printing material, a standard b&w developer gave a dull, veiled result. Experimental formulas and tweaks were published in magazines, some yielding better results than others. I think there was also a formula for a two-bath developer that provided some additional contrast control. Adding a small amount of hypo or fixer to the developer was generally recommended as a starting point. For some time there was a company in the UK that sold an additive which purportedly would make any b&w paper developer suitable for Cibachrome. I have no idea what it contained nor how successful it was

 

[DREW WILEY]

Oh, there were the usual artsy-craftsy types who wanted some kind of weird look and experimented. And then a company in Florida came out with an alternative chem kit for the second generation Ilfochrome; I never tried it. The only serious way to control Ciba contrast is via unsharp masking, which is its own skill set. It would probably require a serious chemist in a research lab to unravel the actual dev and bleach formulas, and then replication might itself require industrial capacity.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Since Sodium Iodide is not very stable, particularly in solution and KI is not stable for much longer, I would suggest you consider that they are present as Iodates to some extent.

Also, I have read one report where the catalyst is present in the developer or even coated to give an even distribution when the dye bleach is kicked off. I believe it might be in the developer, but I doubt if it could be reliably coated unless there was a mild ballast of some sort. Of course, then again, many have gotten good results with Dektol, so the reports of it being in the developer may be just reportage or commentary for patent purposes, disclosing other routes to block patents.

PE

I missed you, great teacher.
How are you doing with paradise?
I hope you read my message and know that I miss you a lot.
You should know that I love you, teacher.
my greetings and respect to you .

 

[Wayne]

The last few posts are incorrect. Almost all all of my "Cibachrome" printing was from 95 on, which I'm sure was well into the second generation of print material. I mixed up all sorts of pretty standard divided and 1 part developers, and all worked fine without any hint of ghoulishness or artsy effects (they just didn't control contrast like I had hoped). I always added a small amount of hypo (1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon per liter, if I remember correctly) for the the mask and that was the only atypical thing about them. What was lost in the later print material was the ability to control the contrast like you apparently could in the earlier stuff that i never had the pleasure of using.

I have more experience mixing Ilfochrome developers than I care to remember. You need to use a developer with hydroquinone. Any normal print developer with HQ should work. The (many years) old emulsion didnt require the HQ but that changed sometime in the 90's. You dont need any catalyst in the developer. I would just use whatever is handy-if you have some Ilford (or Dektol, or whatever) developer toss in the hypo and go.

Second, you need hypo in there. When I mixed my own developer I used about 1/4 teaspoon per liter IIRC. The amount is not critical (again IIRC) but it has to be there. I have 30 pounds in the garage, if you just need a dollop or two let me know.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ilfochrome-developer.34585/print

 

[Rudeofus]

The last few posts are incorrect. Almost all all of my "Cibachrome" printing was from 95 on, which I'm sure was well into the second generation of print material. I mixed up all sorts of pretty standard divided and 1 part developers, and all worked fine without any hint of ghoulishness or artsy effects (they just didn't control contrast like I had hoped). I always added a small amount of hypo (1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon per liter, if I remember correctly) for the the mask and that was the only atypical thing about them. What was lost in the later print material was the ability to control the contrast like you apparently could in the earlier stuff that i never had the pleasure of using.

+1 to that. My personal experience with Ilfochrome paper started not before 2012, this must have been about the last sheets ever made. I mixed a wide variety of these Dr. Beer's developers in an attempt to control contrast - in vain. The results looked good, but had identical contrast.

 

[Wayne]

+1 to that. My personal experience with Ilfochrome paper started not before 2012, this must have been about the last sheets ever made. I mixed a wide variety of these Dr. Beer's developers in an attempt to control contrast - in vain. The results looked good, but had identical contrast.

I could have saved you the trouble!

 

[Randy Stewart]

My first introduction to color printing was on the original Cibachrome. Darkroom Photography ran several articles at the time suggesting a split B&W developer to reduce its hefty contrast, as well as a fixer. I used them and results were excellent, but contrast remained an issue. I used the Cibachrome bleach, which could be purchased separately. Some time later, the magazine ran an article suggesting a DIY bleach formula. I tried it and eventually decided it was inadequate, so I returned to the Ciba bleach. To control contrast, I learned the fine art of contrast masking, which solved the excess contrast issues. Those prints are more than 35 years old now, and look as good as the day they were made. After some years, I grew tired of the considerable labor required to make a Ciba print and changed over to conventional negative color printing. I gave most of my stock of paper and chemistry away many years ago, but I still have a little paper and some stock bleach in storage should a need arise.

 

[Wayne]

Those are the split developers that won't work anymore, for anything other than normal contrast. But that's the least of your worried because your paper likely won't either, even if its frozen. If it does, let us know. I still have some frozen paper and chemical kits but the last pack of frozen paper I tried was shot.

 

[MaxfromFrance]

Hello, I have a large stock of CIBA paper (500 sheets) and enough to make 15 liters of powdered chemicals... I would like to know if you think it still works or should I find a "homemade" recipe, by the way, did the one mentioned in the subject work? Can someone tell me more? Well done for the tests!!!! See you soon and I can't wait for the CIBACHROME to come back!!!

Maximilien (Strasboirg - France)

 

[Randy Stewart]

Hello, I have a large stock of CIBA paper (500 sheets) and enough to make 15 liters of powdered chemicals... I would like to know if you think it still works or should I find a "homemade" recipe, by the way, did the one mentioned in the subject work? Can someone tell me more? Well done for the tests!!!! See you soon and I can't wait for the CIBACHROME to come back!!!

Maximilien (Strasboirg - France)

If I had to bet, I'd bet that your Cibachorme paper and powdered chemicals will work fine, IF the chemicals are still factory sealed. Ciba paper is not a chromogenic process, so it is not subject to the degrading of chemical components like conventional color processes, i.e., C-41 or R-4. It would age more like a conventional B&W paper, if at all. I've never heard of anyone trying to use Cibachrome that old, so all you can do is give it a try. As to substitute processing solutions, the divided developer and fixer formula I use back in the day were completely satisfactory. If you live where you have great library services, you can probably dig up copies of the Darkroom Photography articles which published the formulas and their use. Alternatively, you can message me here, and I'll try to find them in my old records. However, I do not think anyone ever figured out a DIY bleach for Cibachorme, and I looked high and low at the time. The "suggested" bleach published in DP was a total failure. The problem with replicating the Ciba bleach is that it requires a unique chemical which was manufactured by Ciba (a Swiss chemical company before Ilford bought it) and held as a proprietary secret. When Ilford filed for bankruptcy years ago, Ciba was sold off, and the new owner stopped making that chemical. That why Cibachrome/Ilfochrome was terminated.

 

[MaxfromFrance]

oh cool!!! thanks for your answer I didn't imagine that it would answer!!! yes I want to but I don't know how to send an email on the forum... I don't have this book I try to find but difficult or too expensive... and yes I think that chemistry should go especially in powder form it lasts over time... I still have paper in the freezer and I have a ciba cap 40 dispenser so it must have made a big production hahaha!!! thanks again

 

[koraks]

Ciba paper is not a chromogenic process, so it is not subject to the degrading of chemical components like conventional color processes, i.e., C-41 or R-4. It would age more like a conventional B&W paper, if at all

I don't really see any reason to expect it somehow ages very favorably. That it's a dye destruction material instead of chromogenic doesn't matter in itself; also in C41 and RA4 materials, processes of deterioration are linked to the silver halide part of the emulsion for the most part, not the dye couplers, which are surprisingly stable. As to the analogy with B&W paper: how much 20+ year old RC paper have you used? Out of that selection, how much was not fogged into oblivion? I'm willing to believe that Ciba/Ilfochrome is more stable than, say, RA4 paper. But given when it was last manufactured, this stuff is so old by now that all bets are off, really.

Of course, if you're sitting on a pile of 500 sheets of Ciba/Ilfochrome paper and a bucket of chemistry, there's only one sensible way to proceed - which is to try it out and see. The rest of us can speculate; there's one person where who can actually demonstrate.