If Kodak whithers our TMX's... Will it be "Hello Delta!" ?

[faberryman]

Sooooo the question of whether Delta 400 can deliver the goods, and if so, should I just get started now... and learn this stuff? or is there even a remote possibility Kodak Alaris would ever sell off it's brands if it comes down to folding up shop? Thoughts?

The only way you are going to find out is to try a couple of rolls for yourself. Random subjective opinions from the internet won't tell you what you need to know.

 

[macfred]

A few weeks ago I tried ∆400 for the first time - I'm quite satisfied -

Rolleiflex 3.5F - Planar - Ultrafine dev.

tree by Andreas, on Flickr

bridge remnants by Andreas, on Flickr

old pair of boots - revisited by Andreas, on Flickr

 

[RattyMouse]

Those are fantastic shots! I'd be extremely pleased with results like that. After I gave up on TMAX400 I went out and bought 60 rolls of Neopan 400. Once those run out I will certainly try Delta 400 next as a more permanent replacement for TMAX400.

 

[pentaxuser]

The minute I looked at these I could tell it was Delta and not TMY or Acros. I can even tell you who owns the boots

pentaxuser

 

[macfred]

Thank you, gentlemen !

 

[JWMster]

Yeah... great shots. After I TMY2 myself to death (I bought a bunch of 5-packs), I hope to have tested and compared DELTA 400 and 3200 to see where I really stand with them. If it works out I can go with Ilford, I will do so unless Kodak Alaris begins to look like it's here for the long term. And yet I love that Kodak yellow!!!

 

[MattKing]

Both Kodak Alaris Holdings Ltd. and Harman Technology Ltd. are UK private companies. As such, they are required to make public their financial statements.
In some cases they are easy to access directly, in other cases, they can be accessed through reporting services.
Here are some of the results of my research into the most recent (December 31, 2016) statements
According to their financial statements, in the year ending December 31, 2016 Kodak Alaris had gross revenues of approximately 660 million British Pounds. About one-third of that is from what we would consider to be the film imaging business. That third is divided between Colour Paper (65%), Photo Chemicals (8%) and Film (14%).
About a third of Kodak Alaris' revenue from their Photo Kiosk business, while the remaining revenue comes from their information management businesses.
According to their financial statements, in the year ending December 31, 2016 Harman Technology Ltd. had total gross revenues of approximately 18.8 million British Pounds.
In total, and based on revenues, Kodak Alaris is approximately 30 times the size of Harman.
Speaking strictly about Kodak Alaris' film imaging division, that division alone is approximately 12 times the size of Harman. If you add on the division that deals with Kodak Alaris' Film Kiosk business, those two divisions together are more than 20 times the size of Harman.
Kodak Alaris has a really big stake in the film photography business.

 

[Craig]

I thought private companies had no obligation to release their financial statements? Isn't that why they are private? I could see a publicly traded company being required to post results, but not private.
You posted revenues, but what about profit? No point in being big if you're losing money.

 

[NJH]

No here in the UK all limited companies have to make a return which eventually gets published, this includes for example individual subcontractors as I was for several years. Thus with a bit of digging anyone could find out my turnover and profit in those years.

The only real way to hide things is through off shoring which is why it has become so controversial here in the UK.

 

[NJH]

Colour paper almost 5x the revenues from film. That is always an eye opener just how tiny and niche film has become.

 

[JWMster]

There's a podcast the guys at Classic Camera Revival did called, "The Great Yellow Father" on Kodak. Someday, I'd like to go to Rochester and visit the museum. For now... it's amazing how much profit there is in the paper. But only if you're not printing. Like I said, there's some paper out there that really costs a lot, but I thought that it was this stuff: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...o_PICT35002_Pictorico_Pro_Hi_Gloss_White.html which is made by Mistubishi and turns your Inkjet output into something looking like a wet print.

 

[RattyMouse]

Kodak Alaris has a really big stake in the film photography business.

Unfortunately, Kodak Alaris is tied to Eastman Kodak in a way that cannot be broken. If Eastman Kodak goes down, they will take Alaris' film business with them. And Eastman Kodak is in serious financial shape right now. 2018 will be the calm before the storm. In 2019, Eastman Kodak, baring a major miracle, will have to convert ALL outstanding preferred stock to cash. Stockholders were guaranteed a certain stock price (around $17.50/share) and if that price is not met, they get cash. Kodak stock is currently in the low $3.XX/share. Waaaay lower than it needs to be. On top of that, Kodak's revenues and profits across the board are dropping precipitously.

 

[RattyMouse]

No here in the UK all limited companies have to make a return which eventually gets published, this includes for example individual subcontractors as I was for several years. Thus with a bit of digging anyone could find out my turnover and profit in those years.

The only real way to hide things is through off shoring which is why it has become so controversial here in the UK.

Why does the UK public have any right to a private person or private company's finances? I'd like to understand this point better.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Unfortunately, Kodak Alaris is tied to Eastman Kodak in a way that cannot be broken. If Eastman Kodak goes down, they will take Alaris' film business with them...

Unless you have insider information about the contractual arrangement between Kodak Alaris and Eastman Kodak, in which case you're probably violating a non-disclosure agreement by commenting on it here, that statement is unsupportable. It's not known to the public whether, if Eastman Kodak ceased to exist, Kodak Alaris could source product from one or more other manufacturers and continue to sell it under the same Kodak Alaris brand.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Why does the UK public have any right to a private person or private company's finances?...

Perhaps because, unlike how things have been perverted in the U.S., there's a recognition that corporate entities aren't people and have no rights not explicitly granted to them by law. Therefore, in exchange for liability limits, they're required to disclose certain information. Makes sense.

 

[RattyMouse]

Unless you have insider information about the contractual arrangement between Kodak Alaris and Eastman Kodak, in which case you're probably violating a non-disclosure agreement by commenting on it here, that statement is unsupportable. It's not known to the public whether, if Eastman Kodak ceased to exist, Kodak Alaris could source product from one or more other manufacturers and continue to sell it under the same Kodak Alaris brand.

That's a fairly ridiculous concept if you think about it. Kodak Alaris' importance to the readership in this forum is in it's ability to keep the films of Eastman Kodak available. If the current financial problems that Eastman is experiencing finally forces them to shut down and Alaris then turns to Fuji or Ilford to get films to sell, what exactly is the worth to users here? We can already buy Ilford and Fuji film. Or maybe you are suggesting some of the other entities that can coat film. Who here believes that a Kodak formulation can be transplanted to such a sub contractor? Virtually no one.

I suggest that no one here cares at all about Kodak Alaris if they are not selling Eastman Kodak film.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

@macfred ... very lovely images!

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Who here believes that a Kodak formulation can be transplanted to such a sub contractor?...

Irrelevant to your previous post.

A similar non-germane rhetorical question would be "who here believes the Polaroid name on Chinese junk would sell product?"

 

[RattyMouse]

Perhaps because, unlike how things have been perverted in the U.S., there's a recognition that corporate entities aren't people and have no rights not explicitly granted to them by law. Therefore, in exchange for liability limits, they're required to disclose certain information. Makes sense.

Irrelevant to your previous post.

A similar non-germane rhetorical question would be "who here believes the Polaroid name on Chinese junk would sell product?"

I can see you missed the point. Well, sorry about that. Can you state what value Alaris has to the readership here if it is not selling Eastman Kodak film?

 

[Ai Print]

I think I could live with Delta 400 if that is all there was but my preference for TMY2 and having multiple freezers to store film in tells me I am not going to worry about it for awhile....quite awhile at that.

TMY2 is one of the best films I have ever used, color or black and white.

 

[MattKing]

As far as I can tell, much of the world requires that private, limited liability corporations disclose publicly important financial and structural information.
The US and Canada seem to be major exceptions.
The rationale for this being that the availability of information helps offset the dangers of limited liability to those who consider trading with those corporations, and in particular those who consider entering into complex contracts with them.

By the way, I for one also care about the availability of Kodak photographic paper and Kodak photo-chemicals.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The actual film products Kodak is currently making are their best ever, and fill a niche nobody else currently does. I don't want a substitute product under that label! But in this case you've got a sound little rowboat chained and padlocked to a big old rusty sinking ship, in danger of sinking with it. That's often the case with the US stock market. I wish the traditional photo products division could simply be a private company without the burden of ulterior obligations, content with a basic net profit model. If someone bought it on that basis going forward, rather than trying to juggle the endless smoke and mirrors demanded by impatient investors in this country, there might be long-term hope. But even if there isn't, I'm not going to boycott superb films based on "what if" speculation.

 

[RattyMouse]

The actual film products Kodak is currently making are their best ever, and fill a niche nobody else currently does. I don't want a substitute product under that label!

I'm sure 99% of the readership here shares your opinion. Kodak Alaris is pretty much worthless without Eastman Kodak. Alaris is nothing more than a middleman.

 

[Pioneer]

I think that if Eastman Kodak goes under and actually quits making film, no one else can keep up with the demand.

I know that sounds odd but I don't think the rest of the film producing companies coat enough film between them to make up what would be lost if Kodak goes away. I also seriously doubt that they could ramp up very quickly to fill that gap.

Do the coating machines have to keep running for Kodak Alaris even if Eastman Kodak does finally crash? Maybe the arrangement with Kodak Alaris leaves them no choice.

I for one hope we don't have to find out. Like Drew, I like Kodak film.

 

[RattyMouse]

I think that if Eastman Kodak goes under and actually quits making film, no one else can keep up with the demand.

I know that sounds odd but I don't think the rest of the film producing companies coat enough film between them to make up what would be lost if Kodak goes away. I also seriously doubt that they could ramp up very quickly to fill that gap.

Do the coating machines have to keep running for Kodak Alaris even if Eastman Kodak does finally crash? Maybe the arrangement with Kodak Alaris leaves them no choice.

I for one hope we don't have to find out. Like Drew, I like Kodak film.

I dont think this is true at all. TMAX100 went down for over a year and Ilford kept supply easily. If Eastman crashes how can the coating machines keep going? That defies the very definition of a crash.