I Put My Images Where My Mouth Is

[Ray Rogers]

Ray, of course we are "still friends". Bill

Good.
One can never be too careful....

Anyway, now we get into the fun stuff!

What role does the Glyoxal play? Is it to harden, or maintain the semipermeable gel state?

If you actually have a gel state... is it more like syrup than a gel?

How long after prep. can you process the plates? (is there a known window, or does the surface remain permeable to water forever... will it dissolve away without the glyoxal?)

I think I am familiar with the observation you made about sensitization of such emulsions...
it has been observed before.

Unfortunately, I know more about gelatin than any good vegetarian ought to....
I should be ashamed!

You mentioned you hope "they" will manufacture it... is that part of the process difficult or time consuming?

Looking forward to those pictures you promised!

 

[Sean]

Hi Bill, labs are using inkjet printers now to 'spray' fine even coats of living cells and other materials such as solar cell components. With gelatin out of the equation do you think inkjet technology could be used with your formula to make precision coatings? People shouldn't think in terms of the emulsion having an inkjet pattern, since it is liquid it would settle and become uniform after the spraying. If so this could be a huge breakthrough in small scale production..

 

[tim_bessell]

I have been thinking of inkjet coating for some time now.

I have several hopelessly plugged up printers just waiting for such a project. In fact the endless problems with inkjet printers is what made me search for 'alternative' methods. Quite happy about that actually.

 

[wildbillbugman]

What role does the Glyoxal play? Is it to harden, or maintain the semipermeable gel state?
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Glyoxal hastens drying. It also improves adhesion to glass. It is not 100% required. An unhardened coating is functional. Actualy, Formalin works better for this. But my sinuses and eyeballs started protesting about Formalin.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

If you actually have a gel state... is it more like syrup than a gel?
---------------------------------------------------------------
The "gelatin substitute" is syrupy. It will not set-up. However, after adition of AgNO3 solution the look and "feel" of the emulsion is virtualy the same as a gelatin emulsion.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


How long after prep. can you process the plates? (is there a known window, or does the surface remain permeable to water forever... will it dissolve away without the glyoxal?)
------------------------------------------------------------------
While I have not done a formal, deliberate study. The emulsion still "works" after days of sitting at room temperature. I have exposed and developed plates 3 days after coating.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I am familiar with the observation you made about sensitization of such emulsions...
it has been observed before.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the validization.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately, I know more about gelatin than any good vegetarian ought to....
I should be ashamed!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I am ashamed (of myself). But I will not be mixing the "gelatin substitute"
with sugar,coloring and flavoring to be consumed by me or anyone else.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
You mentioned you hope "they" will manufacture it... is that part of the process difficult or time consuming?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The making of the "gelatin substitute" Is time consuming and labor intensive. But it is not "rocket science".
I don`t think many people would want to make it at home. ----------------------------------------------------------------

Looking forward to those pictures you promised![/QUOTE]
---------------------------------------------------------------
I had other mundane stuff to do. Hopefuly will coat tonight.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Bill

 

[Ray Rogers]

Bill,

(Thanks- Just a few more questions before I have to go and do those other mundane chores myself!)

What volume of ready to coat emulsion does one mole silver nitrate make, when made according your procedure?

You said the Glyoxal aids drying...how long does it take to dry without the glyoxal?

I am sure there are many who would like to try it... but waaaaaiiiiitinnngg is not everyone's strong point.

Wouldn't it be possible for your seller to just purchase the gel substitute and
resell it, rather than make it themselves?

That would make it avail much sooner I would think....

 

[wildbillbugman]

What volume of ready to coat emulsion does one mole silver nitrate make, when made according your procedure?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My largest batch, so far, has been 0.4m. That made slightly over 2,400grams,prior to filtration.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

You said the Glyoxal aids drying...how long does it take to dry without the glyoxal?
-----------------------------------------------------
Depending on humidity and ambient temperature, overnight(around 8 hours).In very humid weather, longer.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Wouldn't it be possible for your seller to just purchase the gel substitute and
resell it, rather than make it themselves?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody makes it,except me. I have done patent searches and searched the market. The CA I have with that company is primerely for the gelatin substitute itself. That is where the time and effort is. The emulsion recipe is very simple.
I will push as hard as I can, without generating hostility.
So far, they have made one batch of the gelatin substitute. They sent the whole batch to me for evaluation. There batch was up to par.
Bill

 

[wildbillbugman]

Sean and Tim,
I just do not know. Spraying these emulsions could be very risky, from a toxin standpoint. A good fume hood would be the least you should have. Just spraying gelatin is one thing. Spraying silver nitrate would take a lot of planning for precautions.
I doubt that inkjet inks are very toxic. Some are dyes and some are pigments. But they all have very low oders. Emulsions often contane alcohol and smell bad. When we did electrostatic spraying or curtain coating,lab or factory, there were always several layers of protection between liquid and people.
Cheers,
Bill

 

[Ray Rogers]

--------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't it be possible for your seller to just purchase the gel substitute and
resell it, rather than make it themselves?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody makes it,except me.
Bill

You mean the the "substitute" is not already available premade for another market?

(I imagine only you make "your" emulsion )

How is it Toxicity wise?

Ray

 

[Ray Rogers]

So far, they have made one batch of the gelatin substitute. They sent the whole batch to me for evaluation. There batch was up to par.
Bill

When you need another beta tester...

 

[wildbillbugman]

You mean the the "substitute" is not already available premade for another market?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. It is mine own little "invention".

-----------------------------------------------

How is it Toxicity wise?
----------------------------------------------
While I have not sent it to a certfied lab for an LD50, I think that the finished 'gelatin substitute' is fairly milde. Certainly not as potentialy hazardous as AgNO3, or as toxic as formalin. I do not have enough space for enough mice for an LD50.

Ray[/QUOTE]

 

[Ray Rogers]

How is it Toxicity wise?
----------------------------------------------
Certainly not as potentialy hazardous as AgNO3, or as toxic as formalin.
I do not have enough space for enough mice for an LD50.

So I can't put it in my wife's gelatin sweets? Too bad.

Please remember my offer of a beta tester was not for your LD50 studies!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ray;

IMHO, if I were to offer to have you as a beta tester, I would first like to see some of your emulsion and coating work. This is a suggestion that I put forth to Bill if he considers taking you up on his offer, as it is essential that he see that you are capable of doing justice to his synthetic material in all regards.

This is intended merely as a suggestion to Bill as something between you and him to reassure him. But, this is what I would do in his place.

PE

 

[Kirk Keyes]

I do not have enough space for enough mice for an LD50.

Bill - for a quickie LD50 test you only need 2 mice and 24 hours! ;^)

 

[wildbillbugman]

Kirk,
What is the stanerd delivery method? Injection would be easy. I don't think that mice would eat it. Is the injection intraveinus, subcutanious, or musculer?

 

[Photo Engineer]

For a vegetarian, you guys are quick to dispose of mice!

PE

 

[hrst]

But well, killing them is a completely different matter than eating them!

 

[wildbillbugman]

When I worked in a microbiology research lab I had to kill many mice,rats and rabbits. One of the most disturbing sounds I have ever heared is the final scream of a rabbit. That was 40 years ago. But it still haunts me. I just could not do that today.
Bill

 

[Vaughn]

And what is interesting, Bill, is that I watched a weasel deliver the death-bite to a much bigger rabbit and then drag it off the dirt road (this was in the Redwoods). That rabbit did not make a sound.

 

[Photo Engineer]

In science, we do not "kill" an animal, we "sacrifice" it.

PE

 

[CRhymer]

Bill - for a quickie LD50 test you only need 2 mice and 24 hours! ;^)

Hello Kirk,

I prefer to use a cat. One only requires one. Actually the cat is half dead and half alive - bingo, LD50, every time, or at least until one makes a measurement.

Bill, I agree, the sound of a dying rabbit is blood-curdling. Many years ago a fellow who was working for me dispatched a weasel by clubbing it with a 2x4. Now weasels don't usually hang around long enough to let this happen, but it was so preoccupied with killing the rabbit (actually it was a hare) that it neglected to watch for danger. There is probably a lesson of some sort in this.

Oh, and to keep on topic, interesting work Bill.

Cheers,
Clarence

 

[Ray Rogers]

Beta Testing the Beta Testers...

Ray;

IMHO, if I were to offer to have you as a beta tester, I would first like to see some of your emulsion and coating work... it is essential that he see that you are capable of doing justice to his synthetic material in all regards.

Certainly. I fully agree. That's just common sense.

 

[Ray Rogers]

In science, we do not "kill" an animal, we "sacrifice" it.

PE

The problem is that the life being "sacrificed" does not belong to us.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The latest word is that some scientists believe that vegetation has some sort of cognitive ability or sensory system. See this months Science News for the article.

PE

 

[Ray Rogers]

When I worked in a microbiology research lab I had to kill many mice,rats and rabbits. One of the most disturbing sounds I have ever heared is the final scream of a rabbit. That was 40 years ago. But it still haunts me. I just could not do that today.
Bill

I used to raise rabbits. Had 52 at one point.
One night, our dog started making a huge fuss and got us up to see what was going on... it was JUST like a scene right out of "Lassie"... the dog coaxed us into following him to the hutch... where, with his help, we discovered that one of the little newborns had fallen out of the cage... the dog sniffed at the tiny thing then looked at us... it was the an act of both communication and of kindness. Our respect for that dog rose.

In the Future, when we must live side by side with forms of life... that are obviously both intellegent and delicious... what will our justification be then?

I have never head the death cry of a rabbit.

 

[Ray Rogers]

The latest word is that some scientists believe that vegetation has some sort of cognitive ability or sensory system. See this months Science News for the article.

PE

Looking for it now... but this is something I have never ever doubted.
"The Secret Life of Plants" was often thought about at one time....