I need a long lasting fixer solution.

MattKing · Nov 29, 2022

revdoc said:
Recently I had a bottle of Ilford Rapid Fix go bad about 8 months after opening. It was pretty annoying.

Consequently, I'm going back to what I was doing previously: buying 1kg containers of sodium thiosulfate and making fixer as needed. It works just fine, and hypo crystals last for many years.

Non rapid fixers struggle with T-Max and Delta films.

mshchem · Nov 30, 2022

I don't store opened fixer concentrates. Ilford or Kodak, I mix up a gallon, or 5 L, put the fixer in 4 or 5 full bottles and use 1 liter at a time. Mixed with deionized water, in absolutely full bottles, the unused working solution will keep several months.

I shoot T-Max films, and as Matt says these films work best with rapid fixer.

revdoc · Nov 30, 2022

MattKing said:
Non rapid fixers struggle with T-Max and Delta films.

They take longer to fix, but I'm happy to do that. I'll also live with the reduced capacity.

(All hypothetical, as TMax films are so expensive at the moment!)

Randy Stewart · Nov 30, 2022

revdoc said:
Recently I had a bottle of Ilford Rapid Fix go bad about 8 months after opening. It was pretty annoying.
Consequently, I'm going back to what I was doing previously: buying 1kg containers of sodium thiosulfate and making fixer as needed. It works just fine, and hypo crystals last for many years.

Showing my age: Rapid fixer did not come into common use until the later 1960s. Until then conventional fixer based on sodium thiosulfate was the norm. It is an easy DIY formula (Kodak F-24):

Water 125F/52C 500ml
Sodium Thiosulfate (Hypo) 240g
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 10g
Sodium Bisulfite (anhydrous) 25g
Cold water to make 1000ml

Something close to this formula was sold as Kodak Fixer. Today, nearly everyone uses some form of rapid fixer. It is faster acting, but does not do a better job, and it is quite a bit more expensive to use. No idea of shelf life. If just using it to fix film, I'd make up 2 liters at a time in separates 500ml bottles, using each for 3 months and toss unless volume of use exhausts it first.

Sirius Glass · Nov 30, 2022

MattKing said:
Non rapid fixers struggle with T-Max and Delta films.

Start by doubling the fixing time from 5 minutes to 10 minutes for fresh fixer and longer as the fixer gets used. Then wash for much longer than usual.

MattKing · Nov 30, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Start by doubling the fixing time from 5 minutes to 10 minutes for fresh fixer and longer as the fixer gets used. Then wash for much longer than usual.

And be prepared to have your fixer exhaust much more quickly.

Sirius Glass · Nov 30, 2022

MattKing said:
And be prepared to have your fixer exhaust much more quickly.

Yes, really fast. Probably explains why I use traditional grained films like Plus-X, Tri-X and HP5+ unless I need an ISO 3200 film.

Donald Qualls · Nov 30, 2022

Two-bath fixing works better for tabular grain films in hypo than single bath. Still use double the rapid fixer time, but split between fixer A and fixer B. After half what you'd normally use for capacity of hypo, discard fixer A and replace it with fixer B, replacing fixer B with fresh mixed. About every fourth bath swap, discard both and start fresh.

John Wiegerink · Nov 30, 2022

I mix my own TF2 fixer and keep it in a 5 gal (ca. 19 liters) covered container with a spigot on the bottom. I have been using this fixer for + years now with zero problems. I refuse to say exactly when I mixed this batch for fear of being called a bald-faced liar. I find homemade TF2 to be all I need when it comes to a good B&W fixer. If I didn't use TF2 I'd be using a C41 fixer for sure.

Rudeofus · Nov 30, 2022

MattKing said:
Non rapid fixers struggle with T-Max and Delta films.

They have a problem with high iodide content, which typically happens in T-Maxes and Deltas, but is certainly not limited to these films or any grain shape.

About fixer pH for color fixers: yes, target pH should be 6.5 for color work, but many "cheap C-41 fixer concentrates" are not concentrates for fixer, but actually replenishers. They will fix just as well, but used alone will have a pH slightly above 7 in order to make up for (acidic) bleach carryover. Their expected shelf life will still be great.

@Radost: whenever someone states "X lasts forever", "X has short shelf life" or "X lasts longer than Y", there will be some reports to the exact opposite. That's expected, and in almost all cases these observations are honest and correct. There is different climate, different tap water to mix chems, lots and lots of things can go wrong in most unexpected ways. Whatever the reason, that your rapid fixer goes bad early, most likely a neutral fixer will solve the problem. If you have a source of C-41 fixer already: go use that, it's great for almost all B&W film stock. Only some very old, unhardened film might require acidic fixer, but that's not the kind of film sold over the counter.

redbandit · Nov 30, 2022

ive been using that eco pro fixer only a super super slight hint of smell to it. Ant it does seem to last.

As they say in the ECO Pro paperwork website, stop bath at LEAST 10 seconds, Fixer at LEAST 1 minute, .

if the fixer is too fuzzy to see through, its time to mix more. But the film companies are assuming that a person who is developing their own film is going to do a large amount at a time.

For example if the base unit of ilford film developer mixes into 4 litres of usable solution at full strength and is rated to develop 10 rolls of 120 film.. Ilford assumes youll develop 10 rolls of 120 at 1 time.

john_s · Nov 30, 2022

pentaxuser said:
How close to neutral are C41 fixers and on which side, the alkaline side or acid side? Ilford Rapid Fixer is close enough to neutral for it not to affect the stain in staining developers according to Andrew O'Neill's video so is there a point at which close to neutral is still not close enough to make it equal C41 fixer longevity and as per my question above how much more the wrong side of neutral is it than C41?

Thanks

pentaxuser

The Agfa one was a shade over 7.0, Kodak Flexicolor Fixer just under 7 (maybe 6.5 from memory?)

I don't know exactly how high must pH be to prevent sulphur precipitating out. My aim is low odour and fast washing of fibre paper. Long storage life is a bonus but not my aim.

runswithsizzers · Nov 30, 2022

pentaxuser said:
[...] Ilford Rapid Fixer is close enough to neutral for it not to affect the stain in staining developers according to Andrew O'Neill's video [...]

pentaxuser

According to an SDS for Ilford's Rapid Fixer (revision date 20/06/2017) the pH of the concentrate is 5.1. An earlier Ilford Technical Data Sheet (July 2010) shows the pH of working dilutions, both 1+4 and 1+9, as being 5.0-5.5.

revdoc said:
Recently I had a bottle of Ilford Rapid Fix go bad about 8 months after opening. It was pretty annoying.

Consequently, I'm going back to what I was doing previously: buying 1kg containers of sodium thiosulfate and making fixer as needed. It works just fine, and hypo crystals last for many years.

In their technical data sheet for Ilford Rapid Fixer it says,
"Full, unopened bottles of ILFORD RAPID FIXER concentrate stored in cool conditions, 5–20*C (41–68*F), will keep for two years. Once opened use completely within six months and keep all bottles tightly sealed until used."

What Ilford don't tell you is when the fixer was made, so what the consumer does not know is, two years from when? If you call Ilford and ask them to decode the Batch Number on the bottle, they will tell you if the product is still in date, but otherwise you have no way of knowing how old the product was when you bought it.

EDIT: I believe what makes rapid fixers "rapid" is the fact that they use ammonium thiosulfate? (Someone please correct me if I am wrong.) So if you go back to using sodium thiosulfate, you may need to use longer fixing times compared to rapid fixers(?)

john_s · Dec 1, 2022

runswithsizzers said:
.........

EDIT: I believe what makes rapid fixers "rapid" is the fact that they use ammonium thiosulfate? (Someone please correct me if I am wrong.) So if you go back to using sodium thiosulfate, you may need to use longer fixing times compared to rapid fixers(?)

Yes. To mix a fixer with sodium thiosulphate that's got ammonium ions in it, try Rudeofus's Neutral Quick Fixer here at APUG/Photrio.

Radost · Dec 1, 2022

When You say natural fixers don't play good with TMax and delta do you mean it takes longer or it does not clear as well?

Radost · Dec 1, 2022

rjbuzzclick said:
I use Ilford Rapid Fixer and decant leftover concentrate into smaller bottles filled all the way up and am able to keep it longer than six months.

Maybe the mistake was leaving it in the original plastic bottle and not putting in another.

runswithsizzers · Dec 1, 2022

Radost said:
When You say natural fixers don't play good with TMax and delta do you mean it takes longer or it does not clear as well?

I think the tabular-grain films like T-Max and Delta may just be inherently more difficult to fix(?) I think they take a little longer to fix, and your fixer may become exhausted sooner.

The <data sheet> for T-Max 400 says:
"Important
Your fixer will be exhausted more rapidly with this film than with other films. If your negatives show a magenta (pink) stain after fixing, your fixer may be near exhaustion, or you may not have used a long enough time. If the stain is slight, it will not affect image stability, negative contrast, or printing times. You can remove a slight pink stain with KODAK Hypo Clearing Agent. However, if the stain is pronounced and irregular over the film surface, refix the film in fresh fixer."

Doremus Scudder · Dec 1, 2022

Radost said:
When You say natural fixers don't play well with TMax and delta do you mean it takes longer or it does not clear as well?

Tabular-grain films have a lot of silver iodide in the emulsions, which conventional sodium thiosulfate fixers have difficulty removing. Use a rapid fixer for TMax and Delta films.

Doremus

koraks · Dec 1, 2022

runswithsizzers said:
I think the tabular-grain films like T-Max and Delta may just be inherently more difficult to fix(?)

In addition to the iodide issue, yes, I think you're right. The tabular grains have less surface area that the fixer can easily attach.

Rudeofus · Dec 1, 2022

koraks said:
In addition to the iodide issue, yes, I think you're right. The tabular grains have less surface area that the fixer can easily attach.

Tabular grains have almost the same surface area, and they fix much faster, because they're flat. It's easier to dissolve flakes than cubes of same volume. Regarding iodide: I have already commented here, that while all flat grained emulsions in the market are high in iodide content, not all high iodide emulsions are flat grained. I would expect Tri-X and other modern emulsions to be just as high in iodide as TMAX. And yes, fixers with high amount of sodium or potassium ions will exhaust very quickly in such emulsions, even if you speed them up with ammonium salts or thiocyanates.

koraks · Dec 2, 2022

Rudeofus said:
Tabular grains have almost the same surface area, and they fix much faster, because they're flat.

Well, I recall reading somewhere (but can't recall where) that tabular grains are more difficult to fix as the large flat surface areas are less prone to erosion by thiosulfate and that the more angled geometry of cubic grains is more easily available for chemical reactions.

Alan Johnson · Dec 2, 2022

I'm Curious - T grain verses conventional Grain clearing time

I've called them tabular grain films for years. It's nice to know I've been doing something right for a change! Reading this discussion I finally got to the point of forcefully exclaiming, "Silver Halide Imaging Technology!"

www.photrio.com

Sirius Glass · Dec 2, 2022

koraks said:
Well, I recall reading somewhere (but can't recall where) that tabular grains are more difficult to fix as the large flat surface areas are less prone to erosion by thiosulfate and that the more angled geometry of cubic grains is more easily available for chemical reactions.

Naah the tabular grains are just more stubborn.

Rudeofus · Dec 2, 2022

In theory, different crystalline directions could show different dissolution speeds, and in theory the flat side normal of a flat grain could just be that direction. This could be an explanation for slower fixation of flat grains.

However, I see no reason, why crystals, which fix slowlier, should not also develop slowlier, and I see no reason, why anyone would want to make a crystal, which is hard to develop. Therefore I would not expect this to actually happen in flat grain emulsions.

Does anyone have side by side clearing time tests for Tri-X and TMAX 400 ?

Radost · Dec 3, 2022

Eco natural fixer “2 years old” just opened and made a liter: cleared trix almost as fast as rapid fixer.

I need a long lasting fixer solution.

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