I'm Curious - T grain verses conventional Grain clearing time

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lxdude

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I've called them tabular grain films for years. It's nice to know I've been doing something right for a change!

Reading this discussion I finally got to the point of forcefully exclaiming, "Silver Halide Imaging Technology!"
 
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hoffy

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In the case of TMax films, the emulsion contains a higher percentage of silver iodide which is harder to dissolve than the other halides and so takes longer. I would not be surprised if Ilford's Delta films are similar in that regard. Determining the clearing time is easy with a clip test. Take a small piece of undeveloped film and upon it place 1 drop of fixer. Let it sit undisturbed for 30 seconds, then immerse the film chip into the fixer. When you can no longer distinguish the spot where you placed the initial drop, the film is clear. Double that time for your minimum fixing time and you're done.

Wow! I managed to find the answer amoungst all the other discussion. Thanks fschifano.

OK, my next question is, will modern tech grain films exhaust fixer quicker then conventional?
 

fschifano

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...OK, my next question is, will modern tech grain films exhaust fixer quicker then conventional?

Simple answer. Yes they do. Expect about a 35 to 40 percent reduction in capacity.
 
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Photo Engineer

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What a tempest in a pot of tea!

T-Grain by any other name is still Tabular Grain. These grains are very large in one dimension and very thin in another. There are twinned crystals which are basically 2 T-grains fused together, and there is epitaxy which is something stuck on the corners of the crystal, by any means convenient. Kodak and Fuji have both used this.

Other grains are cubic and octahedra. These describe the crystal habit, ie, cube or octahedral. There are also rounded cubes and octahedra, achieved by etching real cubes and octahedra with silver halide solvents. Then there are "K" grains or clunkers as we called them. These have no specific shape and resemble a mix of sand and gravel.

Any of the above can be core shell meaning that the core is one thing and the outer surface is another. You can also have a graded emulsion in which the core gradually blends into the surface. Oh, and y'all forgot to mention converted emulsions where one type of crystal is converted into another placing stress on the structure to gain internal and external speeds for direct reversal.

The one key is that as size and iodide content goes up, the crystal dissolves more slowly in hypo. As addenda on the surface goes up, the crystal dissolves more slowly in hypo. Thus, a highly sensitized, highly antifogged high iodide crystal of any shape will dissolve very slowly in hypo. It is just a fact that T-Grains with high iodide content are also high speed modern grain types and dissolve more slowly.

And, a T-Grain can be a hexagon, a triangle or any shape, as it is the thickness that denotes whether it is a T-Grain, not the shape of the grain.

PE
 

Tim Gray

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In the "Making Kodak Film" book I just got today, there is a cross section of T-Max 400 where you can clearly see the tabular grains. What I didn't realize is that there is a layer underneath of slower conventional grains (3D as the book calls them) underneath.
 

Kirk Keyes

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as it is the thickness that denotes whether it is a T-Grain, not the shape of the grain.

Isn't it the ratio of the dimensions of the crystal, e.g. the ratio of the equivalent circular diameter to the thickness needs to be at least 2.

Source: Joe Makaskey - US Patent number: 5264337
 

Photo Engineer

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Yes, Tim. In fact, this is similar technology to that used in the new Ektar 100, where T-Grans and cubic (3D) grains are mixed.

PE
 

Ian Grant

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T-grain is to modern style controlled grain film, like Delta & Acros, as Hoover is to Carpet sweepers.

While it might be a registered term so was Hoover and both are used to describe the original and similar style products, people ask for a Coke and get served Pepsi :D

Ian
 

michaelbsc

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... people ask for a Coke and get served Pepsi :D

Ian

Not in the US! Coca-Cola is rabid about brand protection here, and they send inspectors into the field specifically to order Coke by name and try this. If you serve an inspector a substitute after s/he orders Coke by name, a lawyer calls on you.

MB
 
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Photo Engineer

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Actually, all of these are probably carbon replicas of the originals. EM and SEM photos are generally done that way.

PE
 

2F/2F

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What a tempest in a pot of tea!

T-Grain by any other name is still Tabular Grain. These grains are very large in one dimension and very thin in another. There are twinned crystals which are basically 2 T-grains fused together, and there is epitaxy which is something stuck on the corners of the crystal, by any means convenient. Kodak and Fuji have both used this.

Other grains are cubic and octahedra. These describe the crystal habit, ie, cube or octahedral. There are also rounded cubes and octahedra, achieved by etching real cubes and octahedra with silver halide solvents. Then there are "K" grains or clunkers as we called them. These have no specific shape and resemble a mix of sand and gravel.

Any of the above can be core shell meaning that the core is one thing and the outer surface is another. You can also have a graded emulsion in which the core gradually blends into the surface. Oh, and y'all forgot to mention converted emulsions where one type of crystal is converted into another placing stress on the structure to gain internal and external speeds for direct reversal.

The one key is that as size and iodide content goes up, the crystal dissolves more slowly in hypo. As addenda on the surface goes up, the crystal dissolves more slowly in hypo. Thus, a highly sensitized, highly antifogged high iodide crystal of any shape will dissolve very slowly in hypo. It is just a fact that T-Grains with high iodide content are also high speed modern grain types and dissolve more slowly.

And, a T-Grain can be a hexagon, a triangle or any shape, as it is the thickness that denotes whether it is a T-Grain, not the shape of the grain.

PE

That's all fine and dandy, PE, but may we call all of them t-grained films and still be able to sleep at night? :wink:
 

2F/2F

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No, I think you should get a Pepsi, but don't call it Coca Cola. :D

Funny you should mention that. Coke fits right in with my little paragraph of teases. The word "Coke" to mean "cola of any kind" is a very common usage in certain parts of the U.S.A., such as the south. Everything is "a Coke," whether it is Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, Mountain Dew, etc.

E.g.

Person 1: Would you like anything to drink, honey?
Person 2: Yeah, baby; gimme a Coke, please.
Person 1: What kind?
Person 2: A Diet Dr. Pepper, please.
 

Photo Engineer

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Coca Cola once contained Cocaine and hence the name. Up here, a Coke is a Coke and Pepsi is Pepsi!

But then, T-grain is T-grain meaning tabular.

PE
 

Q.G.

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Practically every Kodak Electron Micrograph is a carbon replica.

Maybe so.
But still too much work and not needed for SEM imaging.

Carbon is most used, not to make replicas, but to provide a conductive coating (to prevent charge build-up) on TEM specimens.
 

Tim Gray

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Dead Link Removed

I grew up in that little red 'Coke' county on the Eastern Shore of MD.
 
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