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soysos

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I am really frustrated right now, I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I've had my darkroom equipment for several years now but it has yet to give me a decent print. I got fantastic results when I was in school using their darkroom, so I know its not my negatives or my technique, but when I try to do it at home they always turn out flat, lifeless. I'm using basically the same setup the school had, same 23c enlarger, same zeiss lens, same dektol developer. I just can't figure out what is so different about my setup compared to the school's.
 

Dr Croubie

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Same developer as in the same bottle? Or a new bottle of the same type?

If it's lifeless, go a higher grade, is my general way of working. Took a while to train myself out of the "must get moar shaddow deeetails!" that I picked up from digital forums and go for more contrast...
 

MattKing

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Have you done a safelight test?
 
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Ken Nadvornick

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Have you done a safelight test.

Definitely and for sure stop looking elsewhere until you try Matt's above suggestion. It might save you lots of time and tons of further frustration. Make certain you perform the proper (pre-flashed paper) version of the test.

:smile:

Ken
 
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soysos

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Same developer as in the same bottle? Or a new bottle of the same type?

If it's lifeless, go a higher grade, is my general way of working. Took a while to train myself out of the "must get moar shaddow deeetails!" that I picked up from digital forums and go for more contrast...

a new bottle of the same type. the problem is I can't go higher, the highest filter I have is a grade 5 and they still come out flat. what really gets me is that in the school's lab a grade 3 is perfect. I have done a safelight test and as long as its not pointing diectly at the paper the strips come out white.
 

dehk

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So, if you use a negative that was produced while you were in school, but you print it at home right now, you can't get the same result?

I supposed your enlarging bulb could be a factor.
 

Dr Croubie

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I'd take out as many variables as possible, find a neg and a print that you did back then that you liked, mix up fresh chemicals to the same dilution (I presume you know what dilution was used back then? If not, do as the bottle says), use the same type of paper (but fresh) to the same grade if possible, and post some samples.
Then all that's left is the safelight, the enlarger bulb and lens, and the ravages of time on the memory.
 

NedL

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Maybe light leaks reflected from the enlarger, or in the darkroom? If the safelight fogs the paper when pointed directly at it, that is a little worrisome too. You are getting deep blacks but the highlights are not bright?
 
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soysos

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here are some flatbed scans of a negative I made for a depth of field assignment. the first is the one that was turned in printed in the schools darkroom. this was 7 seconds at f16 with a grade 2.5 filter and developed 1 min. the second was done a few hours ago in my home darkroom, 5 seconds at f11 with a grade 5 filter and developed 1 min. you can see there is a significant difference in contrast. I really hope the problem is with the bulb, I plan on replacing the lamp with a duel dichro once I get a bulb for it. the only other thing I can think of is that my developer is more diluted than what was provided at school. I don't know how it was done at school but I had mine at 1:1.
 

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polyglot

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See the borders of your flat print are grey. That means either that you have a bad safelight, or your paper is fogged. Have you tried taking some of your home paper and printing it at school?

If the safelight fogs the paper when pointed at the paper, it's NOT safe.
 
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soysos

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Maybe light leaks reflected from the enlarger, or in the darkroom? If the safelight fogs the paper when pointed directly at it, that is a little worrisome too. You are getting deep blacks but the highlights are not bright?

I've had this setup 3 different times in 3 different locations the results have always been the same. I've tried a different enlarger, originally I had a 67. I've tried processing in total darkness, jobo drumb. I've tried a couple different developers, arista, dektol, and LPD. the only vriable I havn't touched is the paper it's allways been arista EDU RC VC. I'm not really getting deep blacks or bright highlights, I can get one or the other, or I can get neither one.
 

dehk

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the only vriable I havn't touched is the paper it's allways been arista EDU RC VC. I'm not really getting deep blacks or bright highlights, I can get one or the other, or I can get neither one.

So is that the same paper that you used in school?
 

images39

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here are some flatbed scans of a negative I made for a depth of field assignment. the first is the one that was turned in printed in the schools darkroom. this was 7 seconds at f16 with a grade 2.5 filter and developed 1 min. the second was done a few hours ago in my home darkroom, 5 seconds at f11 with a grade 5 filter and developed 1 min. you can see there is a significant difference in contrast. I really hope the problem is with the bulb, I plan on replacing the lamp with a duel dichro once I get a bulb for it. the only other thing I can think of is that my developer is more diluted than what was provided at school. I don't know how it was done at school but I had mine at 1:1.

I'm curious what type of paper developer you're using, and why 1:1.

Dale
 

NedL

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That's interesting. I sometimes use Arista.edu VC RC to make paper negatives but have never tried to make prints from it. It is the paper that made me change to a new safelight, it is NOT safe under an amber or OC safelight, and was also fogged by my old lighter red which was fine with all my other papers. It needs a deep red safelight.

It is also very fast paper, about twice as fast as the Adorama house brand, which itself is faster than Ilford MGIV. But I have noticed that my Arista.edu paper negatives all have reduced contrast compared to other papers. That can be a good thing in a paper negative. I also have the impression that its response to color is different from my other VC papers, midtones ( where there is usually a lot of green foliage ) have a muddier look to them and it is harder to get good separation of tones when I make contact prints.

In your scans, it sure looks like the paper is fogged all over. That's what mine looked like when I used the wrong safelight with that paper.

I remember other posts on APUG with people struggling to produce prints with that paper. If I remember right, the complaints were more about the tones than the contrast, but you should not have so many struggles, you should be having fun! I think you should try some MGIV, or the Adorama house brand if you want VC RC. I like both very much.
 
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darkosaric

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It is fogged paper - this result with grade 5 filter - it must be fogged paper. Simple test - one piece of paper in total darkness directly in fixer, then turn on safe light, expose another piece of paper to safe light like 1-2 minutes (no enlarger, just safe light) - and develop, stop fix this exposed paper. Compare those 2 papers.
 

pdeeh

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7 seconds at f/16 and 5 seconds at f/11 for exposures suggests rather thin negatives does it not?
 

pdeeh

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and of course the head height ... but even so ...
 

Simon R Galley

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Dear Soysos,

It sounds frustrating......but it can and will be solved!

It sounds to me like fogging of some type...but

Loads of sensible sudgestions I have three questions : Which enlarger are using and which filter set are you using and how old is that filter set ?

PM me your home address and I will post you the MULTIGRADE printing book this will be a good step by step guide to restore harmony and your sanity.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited
 

MartinP

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Fogging.

If you sit in your darkroom for thirty minutes with the safelight off, do you see anything? Leaks of light, red lights on power adapters, indicator-lights on equipment etc.

Is there any reflective surface near your enlarger easel (eg. next to a white wall), or a light-leak from the enlarger head, when you are printing?

Is your paper fresh - not newly bought (it may have been on the shelf in the shop for four years next to a radiator, for example), I mean less than couple of years old and well stored.

Develop+stop+fix one sheet of unexposed paper in total darkness. Fix one sheet of unexposed paper in total darkness. Are they exactly the same colour? If not, you have fogged paper.

Note the specifications for the Edu / Foma paper require a dark-red safelight bulb. Use it, not orange or green or a light not manufactured as a safelight (eg. a red christmas tree light?!). Make sure that you use a bulb wattage specified for the enclosure, or lower than the maximum. Bouncing the safelight off the ceiling, instead of having it pointing towards the working area, may help in a small darkroom as an alternative to using a smaller wattage bulb. Remember that safelight filters can fade and that a second hand lamp may have been used for decades.

If all the above quick checks seem superficially ok, do a thorough safelight check. Use the Kodak style of check with paper exposed to the maximum non-visible exposure. Don't expect that leaving a piece of paper out for a couple of minutes and then developing it will indicate safety.

Check that your developer really is mixed according to the instructions. It has been known for people to accidentally use a stock-solution, instead of diluting it for use.

Remember that Foma paper can work perfectly adequately so, as you have noticed, there is something going wrong in your darkroom ! Please keep us informed of what you find, as it may help the next person with a "strange" darkroom problem who looks in Apug for an answer.
 

cliveh

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Your paper is already fogged or being fogged when you take it out the box. Take a sheet out and develop it without exposing it. Does it stay white?
 
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soysos

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It is fogged paper - this result with grade 5 filter - it must be fogged paper. Simple test - one piece of paper in total darkness directly in fixer, then turn on safe light, expose another piece of paper to safe light like 1-2 minutes (no enlarger, just safe light) - and develop, stop fix this exposed paper. Compare those 2 papers.
When I did my safelight test I exposed half the sheet to the enlarger just to get a mask then exposed the sheet to the safelight in 5 sections in 2 minute increments. The results were no effect on the unexposed side, it came out white. On the exposed side it started fogging in the 8-10 min section.
 
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soysos

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I'll scan some other prints I made yesterday when I get off work, that one was a really bad scan.
 
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