I am done with negatives - a new begin on cyanotypes and more

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

By the way Jan, if you are going to tone it, you can try and skip the KFerri step all together and go straight to toner. Polyphenol should attach to the ferric of FAC as well, although the tone might be different - perhaps more brownish since it won't have the blue component of ferric ferrocyanide.

Haritaki toning takes over two hours for completion. If the Ferricyanide development is skipped and the print is drectly put into the toner bath, wouldn't most of Ferrous wash out of the print before any dye attaches to it? Your suggestion might work better with Ferric Oxalate sensitiser (CyanoRex).

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Another interesting possibility with inkjet printers is to make prints using Prussian Blue as the pigment and then tone the print with any of the toners including Haritaki. I don't know how easy it is to make an effective inkjet ink using Prussian Blue as the pigment, but there is some work albeit in a different context:

https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6374/15/1/28

 

[koraks]

I don't know how easy it is to make an effective inkjet ink using Prussian Blue as the pigment

Well, on paper it shouldn't be difficult, but practice will likely be less forgiving than theory. One of the key tricks is to make a stable pigment dispersion with as little clumping of the pigment as possible so as to get sufficiently small particle size. Even then, the system may likely not work on this particular printer as it's not a pigment printer, so likely, the head will just clog pretty much instantly. On a pigment printer, the concept should work in principle. In that case I'd try to source a pigment dispersion based on Prussian Blue. Trying to DIY one for the purpose of inkjet printing is probably a waste of time; even if you manage to get a dispersion that prints initially, it'll likely not be sufficiently stable to work without having to agitate the entire printer every half hour or so.

 

[nmp]

Haritaki toning takes over two hours for completion. If the Ferricyanide development is skipped and the print is drectly put into the toner bath, wouldn't most of Ferrous wash out of the print before any dye attaches to it? Your suggestion might work better with Ferric Oxalate sensitiser (CyanoRex).

I forgot to mention that you don't need to expose either. Yeah what you say is a possibility. Not sure the the reaction will be that slow as would be in a print made of ferric ferrocyanide though.

Alternatively, one can try coating the paper with the toner or KferrO for that matter and then print with FAC for an instant toned and untoned cyanotype respectively. Just throwing out some ideas.

:Niranjan.

 

[NedL]

I don't understand how the fern leaves are a lighter color than the background. If the ferns were placed on the scanner glass and then you pressed the "copy" button, I would have expected the opposite. Is it printed from a digitally inverted file ( that's fine! I'm just curious )

I think this is all very interesting and cool, but I'm kind of chuckling about how this thread skates along some edges... with options that don't involve light or involve printing directly with prussian blue pigment... but the original scan still uses scanner light I mean, we could print with lemon juice and iron the paper... lots of ways to form an image chemically without involving the light sensitive properties of FAC. Could print with tannin and "develop" with FAC!

 

[Jan de Jong]

I don't understand how the fern leaves are a lighter color than the background. If the ferns were placed on the scanner glass and then you pressed the "copy" button, I would have expected the opposite. Is it printed from a digitally inverted file ( that's fine! I'm just curious )

The Fern picture is a picture with a camera, the lighter parts is where the sun was shining on it.


It opens a new way of doing things, skipping the a digital negative, skipping curves, skipping exposure testing, no more expensive foil.
I was not sure if I could get enough density, but that I think I have all solved with this. Depending on alignment of the printer you can run it multiple times through the printer to be even more creative. I know from my printing on emptying the toner cartridge that for thinner papers it is very accurate, so that would allow 2 or 3 color cyanotype probably.

But I think you are right all is more or less said on this, time to start experimenting and see where this goes.

 

[Jan de Jong]

UV exposure step is not strictly needed in this process if Potassium Ferrocyanide is used as the developer in place of Potassium Ferricyanide. Prussian blue image is formed by the Ferric cations reacting with Ferrocyanide anions. This reaction forms the crux of Herschel's positive cyanotype process.

I have tried the Kferro, was not dark as I expected, then decided to first work on the FAC and Kferri. Tried different papers, glossy photo papers etc, but I like the aquarell paper, it is thick, cheap and seems to work, but that said the alcohol was needed to fix the FAC. I leave it to dry slowly over 20 minutes before exposue, then expose UV etc.
Also tried Iron Sulfate, but as said decided to get something working with the FAC.

 

[Jan de Jong]

I forgot to mention that you don't need to expose either. Yeah what you say is a possibility. Not sure the the reaction will be that slow as would be in a print made of ferric ferrocyanide though.

Alternatively, one can try coating the paper with the toner or KferrO for that matter and then print with FAC for an instant toned and untoned cyanotype respectively. Just throwing out some ideas.

:Niranjan.

Printing with FAC keeps the tonal range same like the image used, I tried printing FAC on Kferri coated paper but then you get the typical response of cyanotype change in contrast, and also the Kferri does not wash off (that well)

see the example, still could be done but I was aiming for the goal to get a cyanotype from the inkjet printer with nice whites and good darks (what ever blue or black etc)

 

[Jan de Jong]

Just in general, when I mix the FAC water and spritus, I place the small container with the solution about a minute in an ulltrasonic bath to get the solution as dissolved as possible.

 

[Carnie Bob]

*please move to different forum if you think this is not appropriate for the Alternative processes... I am in doubt.

After reading Koraks "Whither Hybridia" post I have picked up on the long idea I had in investigating using a printer to print directly cyanotypes.
The basic idea was to fill a toner with for example FAC and then print on paper. After some discussion and thinking, I decided to take an old HP printer-fax. I had some old cartridges completely dried that I would fill with FAC. The first tries were not a succes, no ink on the paper. Finally I found that there was just not yet enough liquid in the cartridge.
For now I have just been using the copier part for example with some dried leaves on the glass.
this method can print direct the image with FAC on the paper. I then expose with UV, and develop with brushing on Kferri. Of course the possibilities are unlimited.
Let me share my first example, here some leaves on the glass, pressing the copy button to print in FAC expose for 10 minutes UV and develop with Kferri, then 10 minute toning with Haritaki.
the HP 901 cartridge - here filled with 10ml dest water, 2gr FAC 2ml of denatured alcohol, about 10ml water there after. (this is ongoing experiment)

Process
- use copier-printer to print FAC on paper (bypassing the digital negative)
- expose to UV
- develop with Kferri
- for this one toning with Haritaki


View attachment 401157
Just as a warning, this is experimental, so only use on printers and cartridges you can spare

Very unique and interesting idea,

 

[NedL]

The Fern picture is a picture with a camera....

Thanks! Got it. I agree, keep experimenting and see where this all leads!

 

[nmp]

Thanks! Got it. I agree, keep experimenting and see where this all leads!

I think he is using an IR filter, hence the white leaves.

:Niranjan.

 

[Jan de Jong]

I think he is using an IR filter, hence the white leaves.

:Niranjan.

I selected this image because the range of greys and simple motive, some earlier tests with too much detail did not make me happy until I better dialed in the dark tones in the development process. Once I had that I tried the Hong Kong Kowloon picture which works well.

Next steps will be to optimize the cartridges. I will have to clean them ensuring the rests of the ink is out of the sponges. I probably will also remove most of the sponge and only leave it at the bottom to get consistent emulsion flow, but keep the top as reservoir. This will allow to remove the liquid in it to be removed after printing, to minimize corrosion when more aggressive stuff is used.

I don't have a lot of time this weekend so probably no new breakthrough. I am looking forward trying to print on xray film or photo paper with probably some rodinal dilution. That would allow for the first time to make an image on exposed photo emulsion

cheers
Jan.

 

[Jan de Jong]

By the way Jan, if you are going to tone it, you can try and skip the KFerri step all together and go straight to toner. Polyphenol should attach to the ferric of FAC as well, although the tone might be different - perhaps more brownish since it won't have the blue component of ferric ferrocyanide.

:Niranjan.

Just a short observation, since I made many test prints some left in the sun for several days with FAC only printed on them.
When then trying to develop with KFerri almost nothing or nothing will happen, but they will directly tone with the Haritaki. On the copy paper I used for cleaning the head, it tones to a dark brown, good contrast and sharpness also. Did not know but it must have fully converted the FAC in long UV exposure.

I have decided to take it up a notch and am waiting for a second hand Epson 1500W which will allow A3 prints and has a good selection of empty reset able cartridges to do experiments with several mixtures at the time. Hope it is fully working model as the seller claims.

Keep you posted when the first results are in.

 

[nmp]

Just a short observation, since I made many test prints some left in the sun for several days with FAC only printed on them.
When then trying to develop with KFerri almost nothing or nothing will happen, but they will directly tone with the Haritaki. On the copy paper I used for cleaning the head, it tones to a dark brown, good contrast and sharpness also. Did not know but it must have fully converted the FAC in long UV exposure.

I have decided to take it up a notch and am waiting for a second hand Epson 1500W which will allow A3 prints and has a good selection of empty reset able cartridges to do experiments with several mixtures at the time. Hope it is fully working model as the seller claims.

Keep you posted when the first results are in.

Interesting....thanks for sharing.

hmmm...giving me an idea. I have a 1430 that I bought refurbished several years ago to do black and white printing which I never got around to. Even bought all the refillable carts etc for it.

By the way, have you considered ferrous sulfate?

:Niranjan.

 

[Jan de Jong]

hmmm...giving me an idea. I have a 1430 that I bought refurbished several years ago to do black and white printing which I never got around to. Even bought all the refillable carts etc for it.

By the way, have you considered ferrous sulfate?

:Niranjan.

Looks like you have the printer you need for a try

I have considered ferrous sulfate, it will give a deep instant blue with Kferri right? I have used it in the past for making some direct prints of leaves by brushing it on and pressing it on paper for example.

Still I do not have a lot of time this week, but will report progress as it happens.

I encourage you to have a look at your printer and give it a go, if you have the time. Once it would work it removes all the usual steps and allows to make a nice print, and you will be able to do lots of experiments on toning etc. For these tests I am using cheap aquarell paper or normal copy paper. Taking away the pressure of wasting expensive paper.

Jan.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Just a short observation, since I made many test prints some left in the sun for several days with FAC only printed on them.
When then trying to develop with KFerri almost nothing or nothing will happen, but they will directly tone with the Haritaki.

Ferricyanide needs ferrous to form PB. What might have happened is, all ferrous formed by exposure to sunlight was oxidised again to ferric by the air. Just a guess, chemists in the forum should be able to throw more light.

Haritaki works with any mordant (e.g. ferric) and doesn't require PB necessarily.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Just curious. Are the printhead and ink channels of your printer non-corrodible to the action of FAC?

 

[nmp]

Ferricyanide needs ferrous to form PB. What might have happened is, all ferrous formed by exposure to sunlight was oxidised again to ferric by the air. Just a guess, chemists in the forum should be able to throw more light.

Haritaki works with any mordant (e.g. ferric) and doesn't require PB necessarily.

Yeah. Ferrous is a strong reducing agent so I would concur what you said happened, i.e. oxidize back to ferric in the ambient. One way to check is of course use K FerrO instead of (or in combination with) Kferri if the print has been laying around for a while.

:Niranjan.

 

[Jan de Jong]

Yeah. Ferrous is a strong reducing agent so I would concur what you said happened, i.e. oxidize back to ferric in the ambient. One way to check is of course use K FerrO instead of (or in combination with) Kferri if the print has been laying around for a while.

:Niranjan.

That should be quick to test, I have lots of scrap copy prints left. I will do some different treatments on it and report back.

 

[Jan de Jong]

Just curious. Are the printhead and ink channels of your printer non-corrodible to the action of FAC?

The printer I am using has cartridges with attached print head. In general I think they are made so that they can endure a wet environment for a long time. The contact points are probably well protected as long as it is not too aggressive solutions. Else I have bought many used empty cartridges.
My experiment keeping the top of the cartridge open was less successful, the sweeping action of the print head was fast enough to deposit most out in the printer. (also removed the sponge that time)
After what I have seen for now I am confident FAC is not too aggressive, have not seen issues for now.

not accepting any claims of damages though

 

[Jan de Jong]

@nmp I just received the 1500w and it is in good working order, only some slight banding, which i hope will cure with more printing.
I think the simplest will be to swap the black cartridge for the FAC printing with a CISS and ARC cartridge for the FAC. then when finished either replace with one to clean the print head and place back the original epson black.

let me know if you have some suggestions also.

 

[nmp]

@nmp I just received the 1500w and it is in good working order, only some slight banding, which i hope will cure with more printing.
I think the simplest will be to swap the black cartridge for the FAC printing with a CISS and ARC cartridge for the FAC. then when finished either replace with one to clean the print head and place back the original epson black.

let me know if you have some suggestions also.

Sounds like a good plan. I don't know if 1500w is compatible with QTRip but that might be something you can look into to control the printing with only one cartridge and also vary the load if need be.

:Niranjan.

 

[Jan de Jong]

Sounds like a good plan. I don't know if 1500w is compatible with QTRip but that might be something you can look into to control the printing with only one cartridge and also vary the load if need be.

:Niranjan.

With the FAC I have been using in the HP 901xl cartridges, I get a print 1:1 from the screen on the print, so no curves needed. I hope it will be the same for the Epson printer.

 

[Jan de Jong]

Not too much progress on the FAC jet printing. I am working on the "ink". Printing seems to work for quite a while but then sometimes stops. I am sure I will figure that out. I know more than I wanted now about refilling, opening, cleaning etc of cartridges. The new printer has not been sacrificed yet but will be due soon.
Let me add one of the last prints I did with the FAC inkjet printed process. For me this process is good to go ie ready steady. (which is where I loose the interest)
The next goal is printing on Silver Gelatin photo paper or Xray film...

I have always been interested in Anna Atkins her prints but then wanted to see the positives.
High resolution scan from New York Public Library Digital Collections.

Inverted on computer with PhotoDonut,
Image printed with FAC by Inkjet
UV exposed to max about 30 minutes
Kferri developed
short toning with Haritaki
dried scan
Size A4.

I am very happy how this reveals even more of the details of the original prints by Anna Atkins.
The rest of her book has to wait till I have cleaned the cartridge again.

cheers.