Hunting for a #10 Cirkut Camera

[CRhymer]

#6 Cirkut Outfit

Hello Ron and All,

Well I found Jim's photos of the camera. Tell me more. Thank you for all the info so far. Making a hob to make involute gears is not a problem, but there are no gears at all with the camera. I am not against having someone else make gears, it is usually faster (and cheaper). I may have some other sizes (widths) of film. I bought them from J&C to cut down for old roll film formats well before I bought Jim's camera (last August).

Oh yes, thanks for the hints on cutting and testing with 220. I expect a number of disastrous test runs.

Cheers,
Clarence

 

[Len Robertson]

Clarence - I looked at some of my old notes and found the gears for the #6 & #8 Outfits and #10 Camera were 32 pitch, with 14 1/2 degree pressure angle. I thought I would post this if you want to check on gear cutters. I used to look on eBay for involute cutters, but I never found any with the right specs. Maybe I gave up too soon. New cutters may be available. I never checked into new ones, thinking they would be really pricey.

Gear sets show up on eBay, but different Outfits and Cameras use different stem lengths/sizes, so you need to know what you are buying. If you have a lathe, you could make new stems to fit your Outfit.

Len

 

[CRhymer]

Hello Len,

I can machine and harden a custom hob (I have both lathe and mill - actually two of each - don't ask). I also have to make the base (tripod head). By the way, what is the difference between the fan and governor type. That may be obvious when I look at the actual camera.

Cheers,
Clarence

 

[Len Robertson]

Clarence - I can't tell for sure, but I think your Cirkut back may be a fan drive, rather than a governor drive. Look on the back and see if there is a flat lever which moves to different marked speeds - 1/2 through about 1/12 (I'm doing this from memory, which is none too good). If there isn't a speed selector, and there is a shaft or two poking out of the bottom of the back (can't see from the pics), then it is a fan governor control. This means you need to make a set of fans, in addition to needing gears. Maybe Jamie has a pic of the fans. Fans should be way easier to make than gears.

eBay #110239245018 shows the bottom of a fan governor Attachment. I suspect your looks like this.



Len

 

[jamie young]

That looks like a fan camera to me. The gears on the fan cameras have holes instead of shafts. I will try to take some pics at some point. I have two fan cameras, a 10 and a 16. Each size can be a little different, but most of my 10 and 16 gears are interchangeable, as they were made at just about the same time. The shafts on the governor cameras tended to be different lengths for the different size cameras

 

[CRhymer]

Here are some pictures just taken. This looks like what you describe as the "fan" type. The scale on the bed reads 8" focus on one side and 14" focus on the other, with various pinions. The lens is a 5x7, Centar Series II in a B&L shutter. It is labeled "Eastman Kodak Co. Succ'rs to CENTURY CAMERA CO. The dial set is 1-100, B T with the CCC logo and Century printed on the centre escutcheon. There is only one aperture scale. The cirkut back is labeled "CIRKUT CAMERA, Made by, EASTMAN KODAK Co., successor to, CENTURY CAMERA CO., Rochester, N.Y.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Clarence

 

[DougGrosjean]

Regarding films, using Google finds:

BHP Photo page on 9.5" films, or rather, aerial films.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/64756-REG/Kodak_1621366__2405_9_5_x_250_.html

Is something like that usable for pics in a Cirkut?

If so, any idea on the long-term availability of such odd aerial films? I guess with Kodak it's anybody's guess. I'm surprised that aerial film is available at all, with satelites....

 

[jamie young]

It's usable. So is 2402. I would find out which B&W aerial films have the antihalation backing if possible.
It's not always clear in the tech sheets The 3404 has the backing but I don't know if it comes in 9.5" rolls

 

[Len Robertson]

Clarence - Yes, you have a fan governor back. I've been told some Cirkut shooters liked them better than the newer internal governor - they (maybe) run smoother, and you can make larger fans to give slower "shutter speed" effect.

Your lens is the double convertible, not the Turner-Reich triple. I don't know anything about the Centar, but suspect it will be just fine for contact prints. Did you get the ground glass back for the Century body? The Cirkut Attachment can be removed and replaced with a 5X7 sheet film back. so you can do both Cirkut and 5X7 with the same camera. It is also to view and focus when setting up a Cirkut shot. If you have the 5X7 back, you can do a couple of test shots with the Centar lens, if the shutter is somewhat functional.

As to making your own gears and tripod head, it should be an interesting project. Did you see the article a few years ago in "Home Shop Machinist" magazine about making a hobbing attachment for a milling machine? I don't recall if you only need one hob to make all different tooth gears of a given pitch. I know with involute gear cutters, you need several different ones for a range of gear teeth numbers. That would sure make it simple if you only had to buy or make one hob.
My notes show the ring gear for the #6 Outfit is 9 1/16" pitch diameter, with 290 (or maybe 296) teeth. That should give you an idea the approx. size you will be dealing with. I think the original was made of hard brass and nickel plated. You will also have to make a turntable of some sort.

Doug - I have a feeling the aerial film is the only real B&W option right now. You might contact B&H and/or Kodak about "real world" availability of these films. Just because they are listed doesn't mean they are still available, at least anything that is close to being discontinued. I've been curious about the demand for 9 1/2" film for aerial photography. Maybe there is still a market out there for aerial mapping. I've searched on APUG forum for aerial film information and there is some, but there is a lot of unrelated stuff to wade through.

Did you see the #8 Outfit on eBay that ends a week from today? It looks complete, except the lens is missing. The gear set is probably for a 10 1/2"-18"-24" Turner-Reich lens, which do show up on eBay now and then. There is no certainty a different T-R will work with this gear set, but chances are it will. Your original idea of getting a #10 is good, but #8s are easier to find, and usually cheaper by several hundred dollars. 9 1/2" film has to be cut down to fit an #8 Cirkut, which is a drawback. It may be a "#8 in the hand beats a #10 in the bush" choice. And if an #8 sells cheaply enough, that helps make a decision. But if you are willing to wait a few months, or a year or so, a #10 will likely show up. Of course, if you are fated to go down the Cirkut road, you will end up with more than one of them, so starting with an #8 isn't a bad way to go.

Len

 

[CRhymer]

Hello Len,

Thank you. I have the 5x7 back, etc. Jim sold it as a working 5x7 and as a Cirkut fixer-upper (major). The shutter works smoothly. I haven't tested the speeds yet, but they seem appropriate. The camera needs a lot of work, and I have other 5x7's so I haven't used it yet. I don't know anything about the Centar either. I will check the focal lengths and try some test 5x7's to see what the single element is like. I have a few TR triples around (can't remember what combinations -I know that is a bit pathetic). I will have to give some thought to the turntable. It would help to see one. I will be at George Eastman House in May, and will do some further research. In the mean time, if you know of any useful links it would be much appreciated. I got this outfit last August and am just starting to learn about Cirkut cameras, so pardon my ignorance and requests for basic information.


Cheers,
Clarence

 

[DougGrosjean]

Hi Len,

Thanks for the advice. I've dropped a note to BHP Photo, asking if the 9.25" Kodak aerial film is truly available, and asking what the lead time is on it. Will let you all know what I hear.

Regarding the #8 - I worry that cutting down 9.25" film to 8" would be quite a hassle... and that I'll have enough variables to try to get under my control with a new-to-me Cirkut, that I'm probably better off holding out for a #10 - assuming that a film source does in fact exist. Crossing my fingers....

If film availablility wasn't an issue, I'd go for a #8 for lower price, and easier-to-work-with smaller negs.

Thanks!

 

[jamie young]

Cutting down film IS a hassle. I've done some, will do some more, but if you don't have to start off doing it, then don't. It's a fine option if you have to, but not fun. I feel very lucky that I started off doing prespooled cirkut film. I could tell when things went wrong that it was me and not the spooled film. One thing to look for is outdated aerial film. It can be had relatively cheaply when available. Haven't seen any lately, but it does pop up. Ilford did have aerial film at one point too, and agfa still makes it as well. You could query adox or foma or the other manufacturers on apug as well. If you found someone to cut rolls, I'd take 100 plus feet of 8 or 10" film
I do long rolls on occasion with my 8 outfit and 6 feet isn't enough film

 

[panoramic]

Chinese cirkut and film

>I seem to recall Bill McBride showed me pictures of a Chinese pan camera that used 8" to 10" width film. I've always wondered if there is a China source for film used in that camera.

I am the person who originally bought the Chinese Cirkut camera that Bill McBride owns. I found the camera in Beijing china in 1985. It came with a roll of Chinese film. As well, the camera only shoots 8 inch film. I tested the film and it was like Plus-X. The camera is an interesting object, but not for a user. I'll bet very few were ever made. When I opened it up to see what made it tick, I found that the gears were hand cut, probably by just using files. The camera ran with weird batteries and odd voltages, It only had one lens (8 inch focal length) that was not interchangeable. Bill has one of the finest collections of cirkut cameras in the world and I knew right away it belonged with him.

I have been trying to get Chinese cirkut film for a while, but my contacts there get stymied by the factory that makes film. The factory keeps telling them they can't make it. If you know how it works in China, you can understand the problem exactly. You have to make contact with EXACTLY the right person. YES, they do make film!!!, I saw more than one cirkut camera and prints made by them while traveling through China.

Ron in Alaska

 

[panoramic]

Gear cutting

It would be nice to have a dedicated machine for cutting gears by hobbing, but for cirkut work it really isn't needed. I looked at the same HomeShop Machinist set of plans mentioned above and did some dreaming too but the bottom line is that it would have taken more work to make the machine than I could ever get out of cutting gears not to mention the cost of the hobs. You need two, a 32 pitch and a 48 pitch with 14.5 degree pressure angles for the old cirkuts and probably more for the guys that have some special project with the modern 20 degree pressure angle stuff or metric gears.

I use a South Bend lathe and a mill with a dividing head to make the gears, and cut them with the correct gear cutters that fit a small range of teeth. After that, the gears are lapped using very fine valve grinding compound and running them with another gear that has a prime number of teeth so they mesh with every tooth (unless it has the same number as what you are making so you need to be sure they are different). Then finishing with a polishing compound usually tripoli (something like Brasso will work) I check the fit of the gears with a good set of original gears, comparing the depth of the mesh and making sure it has a good eyeball look to the teeth.

Making the gear is only half the battle, you need to make the shaft or spline depending on the drive. Getting the pinion gear to mate dead even with the ring gear and not wobble takes some precision. I use collets in the lathe and then check everything with a dial indicator. The shafts can be sweat soldered with soft solder, that's more than enough strength and allows removal and adjustment if not perfect. The original gears are swedged in place and the shaft is spun down to give a nice little rounded bump in the center. To remove an original shaft, I have a special holder and use a punch and hammer. They come right out, no soldered joints.

Ron in Alaska

 

[CRhymer]

Hello Ron,

Thank you for the info. My Cirkut back needs a bit of work besides gears and fans. The spring seems to have tension, but I don't know how the release mechanism works, or how to wind it (haven't tried much yet). A diagram would be helpful. I take it from your post that you are interested in selling gears, etc. As I said above, it is usually cheaper to buy rather than make, especially for a one off, although I find that whenever I buy a camera I end up with another one. At any rate I may be in the market for some gears.

Cheers,
Clarnece

 

[DougGrosjean]

Ron in Alaska wrote:
"I have been trying to get Chinese cirkut film for a while, but my contacts there get stymied by the factory that makes film. The factory keeps telling them they can't make it. If you know how it works in China, you can understand the problem exactly. You have to make contact with EXACTLY the right person. YES, they do make film!!!, I saw more than one cirkut camera and prints made by them while traveling through China."

Just a naive thought here, but maybe a request to the same contacts but from a large film distributor, instead of a private individual / photographer, would go further? No offense / sarcasm intended. And no, I don't <edit: have> the ability to do any better.

 

[CRhymer]

Hello All,

Well, I have done a bit of on-line research in the last couple of days, so I know a bit more, from all of your web-sites and posts to various forums. The spring, clockwork gear train, and release mechanisms all work on my #6 back, although they need a good cleaning. I can't tell yet whether there is excessive wear. It is quite noisy, mostly I reckon, from the fan drive-shaft. The run-out appears rather large, though I have not measured it yet. It may have a slight bend. Also, I wonder if it will run more smoothly with a fan attached? So, I wonder if someone who has a fan type governor could post a picture or a link. I was unable so far to find a picture of the fans.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Clarence

 

[eworkman]

Cirkut

Ron
Have you tried Hugo Zhang?
I know him only from his posts as an ULFer and from those I understand he is the US contact for Chamonix cameras. Perhaps he knows a guy.........
I'd like in on some 8-10 inch film to, heck I'd settle for 6

And who has a contact for Agfa aerial ??? I tried multi email refs from Europe to New Jersey until I got a reply from someone who said sure, send me a credit card number. As I had not received any info as to price, choices, etc etc, I got cold chills.

>I seem to recall Bill McBride showed me pictures of a Chinese pan camera that used 8" to 10" width film. I've always wondered if there is a China source for film used in that camera.

I am the person who originally bought the Chinese Cirkut camera that Bill McBride owns. I found the camera in Beijing china in 1985. It came with a roll of Chinese film. As well, the camera only shoots 8 inch film. I tested the film and it was like Plus-X. The camera is an interesting object, but not for a user. I'll bet very few were ever made. When I opened it up to see what made it tick, I found that the gears were hand cut, probably by just using files. The camera ran with weird batteries and odd voltages, It only had one lens (8 inch focal length) that was not interchangeable. Bill has one of the finest collections of cirkut cameras in the world and I knew right away it belonged with him.

I have been trying to get Chinese cirkut film for a while, but my contacts there get stymied by the factory that makes film. The factory keeps telling them they can't make it. If you know how it works in China, you can understand the problem exactly. You have to make contact with EXACTLY the right person. YES, they do make film!!!, I saw more than one cirkut camera and prints made by them while traveling through China.

Ron in Alaska

 

[jamie young]

clarence - I wouldn't run it much without a fan. It does work a lot better with the fans attached. I don't think it's very good for it without the fan on. I'll post a photo of the fans some point soon
Jamie

 

[CRhymer]

Hello Jamie,

Thanks for the heads-up. I only wound a bit of tension on the spring. It did sound like it needed some load to run properly.

Cheers,
Clarence

 

[DougGrosjean]

From an email I sent to B&H - they tell me that they can get the 2402 and 2405 b/w aerial film. Hoping you guys buy some, so that Kodak keeps making it and has some for me when I buy a #10. Haven't found any source for #8 film, and don't care to cut it in the dark.

Below is the cut-paste from B&H, recieved by me today:

"Subject: 9.25" Aerial Film

Our Answer: Here is the info you requested ...

KODXA9250Q 8 rolls available today
KOPXA9250Q 6 rolls available today

Thank You , & get back to me if you need further assistance."

 

[Len Robertson]

Doug - Thanks for passing on the B&H aerial film information. Aerial film may not be the ideal solution for Cirkuts, but it is nice to know something is available. If you can stand to wait to find a #10 Camera, rather than an #8 Outfit, you will probably be better off. However, people do various type of film slitting all the time, so it is possible. I think the secret is take the time to make a good film spool holder and cutting guide. I've heard there is a black mylar plastic that works well for leaders and trailers.
An idea for finding a Cirkut, if you have the time - go around to old established commercial studios and camera stores and see if they know anyone who might have a Cirkut. I found one of mine this way. A studio owner knew a former employee who had a partial #10. Camera store clerks may know of serious collectors who have a Cirkut. I know one collector in Seattle who had half a dozen in his collection. As professional use of Cirkuts has dwindled, I suspect a lot have ended up in collector's hands. And while you are looking, you could ask about outdated aerial film.
Clarence - I've never seen an instruction book for a fan camera. All the reprints on eBay and elsewhere seem to be for the later governor cameras, although much of the information is the same for both types. You will learn quite a bit from the later style i.b. if that is all you can find. Keep watching eBay for a #6 gearhead. They are really difficult to find, but not impossible. In the end, you may have to make one. Cutting almost 300 teeth sounds tedious to say the least, but compared to what some people do making model live steam locomotives, it is nothing. One thing in your favor - you don't have to make an exact reproduction of the original gear head; just something that functions. For what a #6 gearhead will probably cost you on eBay, you can buy a nice dividing head from eBay and an involute gear cutter, and have the dividing head for future projects.
Ron - Thanks for posting your gear cutting method. I've been curious what method you use. I haven't looked at that hobbing article in HSM in a few years, but I still remember it being a rather involved thing to build. Regarding the Chinese film idea, I had a feeling you had checked on this. I remember Bill McBride saying you found the Chinese camera, although I couldn't remember who ended up with it. If you are in contact with Bill, tell him I'm still alive. I never make it to the Puyallup camera swap anymore. Maybe next year.

Len

 

[CRhymer]

Thank you Len,

I have a rotary table and dividing head, but I want to know exactly what the final product should be before starting. While I do this for fun, it can be quite time consuming, and I am often amazed at what one can buy used, with a little luck (in terms of time and materials to make oneself or have custom made). Also, buying from someone who has already got a set up (and has learned from experience) is worth a lot. I only have to make gears that work together, since I am starting from scratch - although obviously there are a number of constraints. It would be nice to stick to the original design, both for authenticity, and the possibility of getting another unit.

Ron, what material are the ring and pinion gears made of, more importantly, what does one use today. I ask, because I will be in the south (of Canada) in May and like to shop for supplies and haul them back.

Cheers,
Clarence

 

[jamie young]

Hi Clarence The big ring gear was chrome plated steel, and the small gears were brass. I had a gear place in Milwaukee cut me a big ring gear for my #16 - a 20" gear with 600 teeth. I had them do it in stainless, and it has worked fine. Ron knows the machining and materials choices better than me though. I shot some images of the fans and gears and will get them off my camera soon.
Jamie

 

[Len Robertson]

Clarence - Maybe you found this already, but I just ran across a downloadable #6 Outfit instruction book:

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/kodak/kodak_cirkut/kodak_cirkut.htm

Len