HP5+, Rodinal, Minimising Grain ?

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Neither does it make it universally good. All developers have their strengths and weakness and consideration of this fact should determine what is used in a particular situation.

I never said it was universally good. Just that some people love the product, and for good reason.
Photographers obsess over technicalities too much. A little grain doesn't make or break a photograph, but how you use your head does.
I specifically mentioned Gibson because all he uses is Rodinal, with Tri-X 35mm film, and his pictures came out ok...

 

[polyglot]

If you want high speed with small grain and plenty of contrast, I would strongly suggest you try TMY2 (Tmax 400). In Xtol it works nicely out to about EI1600 with contrast that can be tamed and with Rodinal you can get EI800 from it without any particular effort. The grain is far, far smaller than with HP5, even using Rodinal. I wouldn't hesitate to make a 24x30" print from 6x7, i.e. 11x16" from 35mm; it will have visible but subtle grain at that point.

I have several 16x20" prints (from 6x7 TMY2, so that's slightly less enlargement than an 8x12" from 35mm) which are nearly grain-free. One at EI400 (normal contrast, though the lighting is contrasty) and one at about EI3200 (extremely dim flat lighting just after sunset on a day with full overcast, developed for EI1600 and printed at high contrast for a noirish look).

And you don't need much more (IMHO) than 1/125 for street shooting. If I can shoot street at 1/125 with a 6x7 SLR (usually 110/2.8 lens), you're doing something grossly wrong if you can't get sharp shots with a Leica at that speed. I only shoot 1/250 if I'm using my 250APO.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I get tired of these threads that dump all over other people. If you think Rodinal is a terrible developer then maybe you are just a terrible photographer. Ever think of that? If your photographs are better than Ralph Gibson's, then by all means, show them to us! The world will bask in your glory... But you offer nothing Tom1956 except vitriol. Images mean everything; developers mean nothing.

 

[Ian Grant]

Now why didn't I say something brilliant like that? Oh, I did. Agreed. But since I enrolled on here, I came to note that Rodinal has its fans. Some things defy understanding.

Rodinal has its fans because it gives superb results with the right films, it's particulary good at bringing out the best all round qualities of modern T grain (and similar) films like Tmax 100, Delta 100, APX100 etc. I used it as my main dveloper for about 20 years before switching to Pyrocat HD.

Contrary to many comments some of the finest grain images I've seen made with 35mm films have been with APX100 and Tmax100 developed in Rodinal, of course APX25 was finer but it's bee discontiued for some time now.

Rodinal needs careful temperature control accross the whole process cycle including washing to get the best results but then this is true of all developer/film combinations.

Ian

 

[TheToadMen]

what if: I'm rowing across the ocean ...

Hi guys,
You're all absolutely right, there are nice alternatives.
But maybe we just like to fool around (I mean to test) with Rodinal and Ilford film, just to see what it can (not) do and to what extend we can influence the process and results.

To quote Bill Watterson: "You mix a bunch of ingredients, and once in a great while, chemistry happens."
and Davey Coleman: "Creative thinking may mean simply the realization that there’s no particular virtue in doing things the way they have always been done."

+1

Relax everyone and respect each other. This thread is just and only about having fun with testing Rodinal, to see what it can do. Not about preaching or dishing Rodinal or whatever. Please humor us in our diluted ways ....

It's about having fun and fooling around with a certain developer at hand and still having fun, not judging or disqualifying any other developer.

If I want to dwell on how get to the USA or Australia from Holland by rowing boat, you can tell me it is easier to go by plane, but if I only want to use a rowing boat this time - silly as it may be - tell me how you think I can do this best & safely, instead of comparing the track records of several airline companies over and over. I love airplanes and next time I will take one, but just for now I would like to dwell on the thought of roaming across the ocean, just because I can - like the Dutch did since 1602.
Please indulge me on my foolish ways and join the conversation just for the sake of it.....

Let go of all your experiences, certainties and traditions for once and say: what if ..... and have fun

 

[Ming Rider]

The purpose of the test (and my original question which lead to it) was an attempt to get the best out of what I have. I recently changed to HP5+ from FP4+ for the reasons I gave previously. I had also used Rodinal/Adox Adonol for many years and had just purchased a new 500ml bottle, so was looking to capitalise on my investment.

I am fully aware that there are other more capable developers, but I (and a small band of sad people here ) like Rodinal and the results it gives.

Like the engine in your favorite old car/motorbike/lawnmower/boat, it's a worthwhile and rewarding experience tuning to get the best from it. You will of course get a few who will say, "why not just by a new car/motorbike/lawnmower/boat".

Peace.

 

[NB23]

The problem with rodinal is that newbies get brainwashed by other bewbies about how it's magical as a stand developer. There's so much BS conceptions flying around and when someone experienced and reasonable gives PROPER advice, he is automatically called a troll by the... Unexperienced.

Personally, I like rodinal with Hp5. The grain is just beautiful! Apx100, tmax100, fp4, plus-X...
Don't we hate digital because of the lifeless, ugly and super clean files? Give me grain!

 

[markbarendt]

Edited quote.

The problem with _________ is that newbies get brainwashed by other bewbies about how it's magical as _______.

Just fill in the blanks.

Don't we hate digital(?)

No, this just isn't where we talk about it.

 

[zsas]

The problem with rodinal is that newbies get brainwashed by other bewbies about how it's magical as a stand developer. There's so much BS conceptions flying around and when someone experienced and reasonable gives PROPER advice, he is automatically called a troll by the... Unexperienced.

Personally, I like rodinal with Hp5. The grain is just beautiful! Apx100, tmax100, fp4, plus-X...
Don't we hate digital because of the lifeless, ugly and super clean files? Give me grain!

Have you watched the OP's video, he's hardly a newbie....

Why do we always have the "council" who interject that deviating from manufacture's standards will cause the destruction of analog photography.

Sir Alexander Fleming* my friends.....

...observed that colonies of the bacterium Staphylococcus aureus could be destroyed by the mold Penicillium notatum

 

[Ming Rider]

The beauty of forums is that someone can ask a question and receive a wide variety of ideas and opinions.

That's why I asked the question in the first place and that's why I took those ideas (except the different films/developers) and put them into a single experiment, so that I and others could see what did what.

 

[zsas]

I'm gonna baseline this thread, OP has a ton'a HP5+ and Rodinal, he wants less grain, he tried adding salt and that didnt affect the grain, though he did notice that the 1:100 stand dev with salt achieved a result that he preferred. He's going to print it and see if it meets his needs. If the grain is not what the OP desires oh well, I am sure he will move to a different dev....

Why all the Debbie Downers here? Seems to me the OP is having fun and sharing which studies show are both highly correlated to happiness.....

 

[NB23]

Not talking about the op. I was talking about the rodinal-stand-developmrnt internet hype which, yes, is hyped up by newbs most of the time.

 

[zsas]

^Didn't the OP just prove your point, he said, and I quote:

Both the standard 1:25 and 1:100 appear to make similar images

 

[baachitraka]

Me for example was quite scared about any agitation scheme when I first start developing of my own. So I naturally felt stand development was more comfortable.

After a while you may realize that you don't belong to extreme contrast taming culture.

 

[erikg]

Am I the only one who sees uneven development in the 4th image? (1:100+salt). Right hand side. A less busy subject will show that even more. Stand and semi-stand is risky that way.

 

[markbarendt]

Definitely lighter to the right.

 

[Ming Rider]

Am I the only one who sees uneven development in the 4th image? (1:100+salt). Right hand side. A less busy subject will show that even more. Stand and semi-stand is risky that way.

Now you mention it, image 4 (1:100 Salt) definately has a large 'streak' of lightness to it on the right hand 3rd, which doesn't appear in the straight 1:100.

Could it have something to do with the salt, though it doesn't appear in the 1:25 Salt? An effect of the long developing time maybe?

 

[markbarendt]

My guess is the lack of agitation.

I find it fascinating watching two liquids of differing colors mix, all the shapes are amazing, even after some time there can be lighter and darker areas indicating differences in concentration floating around.

Agitation helps mitigate the differences that may be floating around.

Also the specific gravity of the chemicals has its effect.

 

[Chris Lange]

Interesting vid, interesting comments.

I might offer a suggestion.

Acufine diluted 1+1 or 1+2, will give you a pseudo-compensating development with fine, sharp grain and plenty of punch. I used to use Acufine almost exclusively, but I haven't been shooting in low light as much as I used to, or doing ridiculous push processing, so I've mostly been using Xtol or D76.

 

[Rolfe Tessem]

This thread seems to be like a 1970's rerun of what we already know. Rodinal is a fine developer best used on low-speed traditionally formulated films, such as APX-100, FP4+, Plus-X, etc. When used on 400 iso films, it is going to give large grain -- the size depends on the film. HP5+ is at the high end. Tri-X is borderline. Personally, I like the look on APX-100, but would never use it on a 400 iso film. Xtol was formulated specifically to overcome these issues (among others) with higher speed films and if grain is the issue, Xtol is your friend...

 

[zsas]

Hi Ming Rider (MR) and fellow Apug'rs. I was intrigued by what MR was doing so I had to do the same

I had a roll of HP5+ that was shot on a plastic camera and have some Ardonal laying around and thought I'd try to replicate what MR was doing. So the fact that the below was shot on a plastic camera, err, take that with a grain of salt

The images look great (remember this is a plastic 28mm lens camera with prob a 2 cent lens ), except sadly I have that right side streaking that was seen in the orig 1:100+Salt scan that MR showed. Should one be able to solve for that streaking, this might be promising....

Notes: I used a tank that holds 900ml. I put in 1 blank reel, then reel w film, then 2 blank reels in the tank. 891ml distil water with 27g of Kosher Salt diluted into it (in line with the 30g/l theory of MR). 9.5ml of Rodinal (well really Adox's branded Ardonal). Agitated for first min, stand, then agitate 10 sec at 30 min, 30 min more stand, then drain, stop, fix, wash; all in line with how MR did his test....

I love the look (I like my grain, which is why I love this combo), just not lovin the steak....

 

[erikg]

Well if you like the look the good news is you can have it without the non standard agitation. Agitate conventionally, as Ilford recommends is a good start, work out a time that gives the contrast you like and expose properly. You'll have what you like and evenly developed negs as well. No need to over complicate things.

 

[zsas]

Agree, I usually use Rodinal 1:25 or HC-110 with my HP5+; however, when Ming Rider (MR) possibly found a unicorn solution, I had to give it a go - biases asside. I am going to say that the neg above looks great, just not for me due to the streaks . I have to confess, of all the times I have done stand or semi stand, I get streaks, so it continues to not be for me, though dont let that dissuade anyone. Test with your tanks, agitation, water, etc.....

I just want to stop and thank MR for making me think different about something. Though it wasnt for me (1:100+Salt), I was jazzed following this thread and happy to give it the old college try....

 

[markbarendt]

Hi Ming Rider (MR) and fellow Apug'rs. I was intrigued by what MR was doing so I had to do the same

I had a roll of HP5+ that was shot on a plastic camera and have some Ardonal laying around and thought I'd try to replicate what MR was doing. So the fact that the below was shot on a plastic camera, err, take that with a grain of salt

The images look great (remember this is a plastic 28mm lens camera with prob a 2 cent lens ), except sadly I have that right side streaking that was seen in the orig 1:100+Salt scan that MR showed. Should one be able to solve for that streaking, this might be promising....

Notes: I used a tank that holds 900ml. I put in 1 blank reel, then reel w film, then 2 blank reels in the tank. 891ml distil water with 27g of Kosher Salt diluted into it (in line with the 30g/l theory of MR). 9.5ml of Rodinal (well really Adox's branded Ardonal). Agitated for first min, stand, then agitate 10 sec at 30 min, 30 min more stand, then drain, stop, fix, wash; all in line with how MR did his test....

I love the look (I like my grain, which is why I love this combo), just not lovin the steak....

Actually the right side, since this started as a negative, has been developed more causing the lighter positive image. The area to the left did not progress as far.

That doesn't change the method needed to fix the issue, it just lets us define the problem properly...

 

[zsas]

^ Nice intel Mark

Onward and upward....now whose got the unicorn-finding-solution?

Or will we end with the unicorn getting away again...

C'mon Ming Rider, what'a got up your sleve in that chicken shack that can solve the ROD issue (right-over-develop)? Any eye of newt or frogs breath that you can add into the mix to catch this unicorn? We've a lot of folks rooting for this to fail....I'm rooting for ya, just out of ideas too