How's AdoXTOL coming along, Team Adox?

[m00dawg]

I realize this is a bit fringey to the original question, but maybe since I was the OP I can get away with it? Since there was talk of replenishment being a real possibility, but with no real data as of yet, I was curious as to what folks were thinking about that wanted to attempt this.

My thought was to find a good reference film to use for exposing a step wedge and making some H&D curves, preferably one I already have curves for using my previous XTOL-R solution. I expect there will be some changes but it'd give me a good base. I could then find the proper dev times for XT-3 at 1:1. Once I have this, I can start testing the replenished solution every few runs and seeing how the H&D curve changes as well as the dmax. This should tell me when the replenisher is fully seasoned but also make sure there isn't any suspected falloff if my dmax start to decrease significantly. If so, I can either increase the replenishment rate, or, if it's happening quickly, then it might indicate replenishment might not be a good fit for how often I would tend to develop film (usually once every week or two, which seems fine for XTOL-R).

Any thoughts on that? I should say I mixed my batch of XTOL-R (over two years ago now), I didn't both with any of that and largely YOLO'd it. But I also didn't have a densitometer at the time (I have an X-Rite 301 now). Alas I don't have a sensitometer - I use my enlarger - but I think it should still be reasonably accurate enough to draw some conclusions. I know the X-Rite X-Ray sensitometers are cheap and for this that might be just fine, though I'd like to get one that I could use for more general film testing as well.

Note for XTOL-R I stored my replenished solution in a 2L glass bottle and I'll likely do the same in this case, at least once I pour the old solution out as a sacrifice to the film gods...

 

[MattKing]

Your idea would be a good start, but you would have to follow it up with tests on different types and, to a certain extent, formats of film.
You might also need to do tests with different types of reels/holders and tanks and agitation, because different types and amounts of aeration might matter.
It would be easier to answer the question for a single type and format of film, developed in a particular type of reel/holder and tank and agitation.
You would, of course, have to test for the appropriate amount of replenishment, and test over time to see if a long term steady state is possible.
X-Tol is quite extra-ordinary in a lot of ways.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'd expect that if replenishment keeps the activity of the developer constant, it'll be constant on different emulsions and different formats. Same is same.

What we don't know yet is if that's the case, or how much replenishment per roll processed will be required to make it so.

 

[Henning Serger]

Perhaps they have. However, the "Sino" Promise holdings [Chinese] company that bought them is as interested in making a buck as anyone else. The Chinese photographic companies have brought us some good stuff lately. Whose to say Sino Promise Holdings won't too?

We have to wait and see what Sino Promise Holdings will do in the future. They have a photo chemistry plant in China. Photo colour chemistry has been produced there so far. Will they transfer the production of BW chemistry to that plant? Or will they continue to cooperate with an OEM manufacturer like Champion or Tetenal for BW? Will they improve the QC? We will see, sooner or later.

Concerning Chinese products in general: I've been in China two times, have friends there, and the economic development of the last 40 years has been really impressive. But it is of course not all so shiny, because
- the huge negative environmental impact of industrial production in China
- the exploiting of workforce there, no protection of and rights for workers (and citizens in general)
- the strongly increasing aggressiveness of the PRC government against democratic states.
Therefore I have made the personal decision for me to avoid buying Chinese products if I have an alternative from a country without these issues. And that includes the case when the alternative product is more expensive.

Concerning a possible alternative for XTOL:
ADOX had asked me to do very detailed tests to find possible weaknesses. They wanted a kind of very critical "double-check" before market introduction. My benchmark was original XTOL before the here discussed problems occured.
So here are my test results:

1. Sharpness, resolution, fineness of grain and sensitivity / speed are on the same (very good) level of original XTOL. No visible differences here.
2. I could generate fine characteristic curves the same way as with original XTOL. Again no visible differences here.
3. The dissolubility of the XT-III powder is much, much better compared to XTOL. That is a very nice surprise, as you can dissolve the XT-III powder very fast in 20°C water.
4. The ADOX powder packaging is very good, and you can get all powder out easily without having any significant rests left in it.
5. As I already know from former tests of other ADOX developers and fixers with CAPTURA dust binding technology, this innovative technology works really very well. So dust isn't a problem anymore at all.

So my final test result:
ADOX XT-III offers in most parameters the same very high quality for which XTOL has is excellent reputation for.
But in some parameters XT-III even surpasses XTOL significantly. Especially the handling is much better and more user friendly.
And if you consider that XT-III is even more eco-friendly because of the new buffer system, and that it is also available in both 1L and 5L packagings, we have now an overall significantly better product.
I am very satisfied.
And as this product is "Made in Germany", it is made under extremely high environmental and workforce protection standards. In a democratic state. That may not be important for everyone, but it is important for me.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Donald Qualls]

And as this product is "Made in Germany", it is made under extremely high environmental and workforce protection standards. In a democratic state. That may not be important for everyone, but it is important for me.

At the least, we should demand of Chinese suppliers that they meet Western standards when they produce products for our market. That, however, has to come from governments to carry any authority beyond that of a boycott, and governments have more urgent matters on their plates at this time.

 

[Peter Schrager]

At the least, we should demand of Chinese suppliers that they meet Western standards when they produce products for our market. That, however, has to come from governments to carry any authority beyond that of a boycott, and governments have more urgent matters on their plates at this time.

Not really as it is all part of the puzzle

 

[m00dawg]

Real quick, on the note of Chinese chemicals or not, I believe Sino has been making Kodak C-41 chemicals for some time now? Those seem to be very good. So while Henning has some good points about the exploitation of works, environmental impact, and concerning governmental actions, the quality of Chinese products is wide. My Chamonix 45F2 for instance is made in China. Granted by a small company that has a passion for film photography, but it is a lovely camera. As are the Shen Hao's it would appear. Also there's Shanghai film which, though it's not on the same level as say Adox CHS II, is a nice film! And likewise most electronics are made in China with a wide range of quality. So it's not so black and white. Given my bad batch of XTOL says "Made in Germany" as well, I think it's important to make the distinction that we should judge the companies, not the geography.

Your idea would be a good start, but you would have to follow it up with tests on different types and, to a certain extent, formats of film.
You might also need to do tests with different types of reels/holders and tanks and agitation, because different types and amounts of aeration might matter.
It would be easier to answer the question for a single type and format of film, developed in a particular type of reel/holder and tank and agitation.
You would, of course, have to test for the appropriate amount of replenishment, and test over time to see if a long term steady state is possible.
X-Tol is quite extra-ordinary in a lot of ways.

While my exposure may be somewhat variable (due to using an enlarger over a sensitometer), my dev process is a modified rotary process. I use Jobo drums but built my own rotary (using an ATTiny85 microcontroller, a brushed motor and a buncha 3D printed parts). Some variables in the process as it's not a real Jobo nor to I have a lifting head or anything but I think it means development can be pretty consistent with the main variables being minor temperature swings, pour in and pour out times, etc.

Sheet vs roll can matter in some cases (it does for CHS ii) but I think as long as I pick a good film to do the base tests against it should be good to draw conclusions? Basically I'm making my own test strips kinda like what Kodak still makes for C-41 (I think you can find official BW strips but they seem to be hard to come by and not cheap).

 

[MattKing]

Chineese goods must be clearly labeled with photos of consequences of buying and using them, similar to lug cancer photos on cigarettes.
Midwest/rustbelt area in the US is full of "cancer patients", something like this will do.

Complain about politics and human rights in China all you wish.
There is so much positive interaction between ourselves and millions of people in and from China, that to brand everything originating from China as being "cancer - like" is extra-ordinarily rude and narrow minded.

 

[MattKing]

There are a large number of businesses in my part of the world that have been started by people with roots in China, and are employing people here.
Many of them are service businesses. And many of them import goods from China and other locations.
Robotics are probably a much greater threat to manufacturing jobs than export is.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Who knew orange juice & coffee was such a stellar combination? Probably not the Politburo.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

We have started shipping the first batch of XT-3 developer today. Sorry for the one week delay but our QC chemist had a dental surgery at the end of last week.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Gotta check Freestyle periodically now.

 

[grain elevator]

3. The dissolubility of the XT-III powder is much, much better compared to XTOL. That is a very nice surprise, as you can dissolve the XT-III powder very fast in 20°C water.

That's actually a nice upgrade I hadn't thought about, but might be willing to pay the higher price for (compared to the Foma product)!

 

[Kyon Thinh]

Oh my, I just went to Fotoimpex and picked up Ultrafin 5 hours ago.
I hope Mirko did send some to the store, can't wait for this, as I have been harassing the poor store seller for a few months already.

 

[K-G]

View attachment 269970 We have started shipping the first batch of XT-3 developer today. Sorry for the one week delay but our QC chemist had a dental surgery at the end of last week.

I do hope that the XT - 3 will be available from the Fotoimpex web-shop soon and that your QC chemist is recovering OK. What would the world be without chemists !?

Karl-Gustaf

 

[m00dawg]

I'm prepared for the long wait now. I've got both SIlvermax and now a buncha bags of XT3 in separate orders making their way across the pond. It took quite some time last time. Until then I'm trying to simply make due with some spare chemicals I have. I have confidence it will be worth the wait however!

 

[pentaxuser]

View attachment 269970 We have started shipping the first batch of XT-3 developer today. .

May I ask: Is the difficulties of supplying the correct paperwork for export to the U.K. creating any problems for your sales to the U.K?.

I have a feeling that the EU commission and the U.K. government are not co-operating in a way that helps smaller companies like Adox

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Tom Kershaw]

May I ask: Is the difficulties of supplying the correct paperwork for export to the U.K. creating any problems for your sales to the U.K?.

Adox seem to have good distribution in the UK these days. I've just started using DS-10 but wish Adox all the best with the success of the new XT-III developer.

 

[pentaxuser]

Adox seem to have good distribution in the UK these days.

Well yes as long as the UK importers can bring it in without major difficulties paperwork-wise that is at least a fallback position but in the past it was often the case that ordering direct from Fotoimpex was cheaper and as straightforward as ordering from a U.K. retailer but what is key to this is whether sending items directly to a U.K.customer is worth the extra effort from Fotoimpex now that we are divorced

pentaxuser

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

Fotoimpex has already been in business before the common market of its best times was created. We have sold to the UK while it was an export, then we had wonderfull years of a united market and now we are back to how it was in the 90ies. So all doable from this perspective if there was not the 135 UKP rule. That is a true dealbreaker as it imposes prohibitive amounts of paperwork on small orders! I wonder who ever came up with this rule. The respective government official must have been very far elevated in his understanding of how business can possibly work from reality (to put it in nice words). But in the EU we also have our problems. You might have noticed that we started charging the respective taxes of each individual european country this year. The amount of paperwork incorporated in this is massive and in total no one is winning. Laws like this are destroying the idea of a common market reducing welfare, making business more difficult and lead to higher consumer prices in the EU.

 

[Kyon Thinh]

Adox, do you have any idea when Fotoimpex Berlin will get some XTIII 5000ml kit? I see it is available online and as special order for the store, so I ordered for the store but Artur said we don't have it yet.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

Well we finished the first batch yesterday 15:15 and tried to squeeze some into parcels before the posttruck came. The store can get some at the earliest next thursday.

 

[radiant]

Well we finished the first batch yesterday 15:15 and tried to squeeze some into parcels before the posttruck came. The store can get some at the earliest next thursday.

Ordered few bags, thrilled to try out! Does the developer come with "makes all frames Rodchenko level" chemical too?

 

[Kyon Thinh]

Thank you very much, I will order again on Friday then, can't wait to try this.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for the reply I have not heard if the 135 UKP rule but are you saying that until is resolved it is not worth your effort to export directly to an individual customer in the U.K.? If this is the case then will you export to our larger retailers, some of whom currently stock Adox products or is this not worthwhile either?

Thanks

pentaxuser