How to use Positive Film as black and white

[mohmad khatab]

In my experience slide film never loses its sensitivity, only becomes more whacky over time - less dense, colors shifting, fogging... The same has been repeated on othe threads too.
If you need reliable results, this party will hardly be for that I guess.
Set your ASA to box speed and bracket exposures while you're testing those reversal processes. Then you'll arrive at the actual sensitivity too.

I received these results from the same friend in Cairo.
Expired in the year 2000 and photographed on ISO 6 - developed with chemistry (Kalogen), 1:100 - 11 minutes - 20 degrees.
Where is the problem here?
Did he get too much light?
Did he get (development) too high or too low?

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I'm lacking in my theoretical knowledge, but I still want to shoot some expired film and to play around with it, developing it the untraditional way... Therefore I tend just to do the experiment and see for myself. But it seems legit a starting point, yes.

Remember, people aren't buying expired film for perfect response and predictable results, it's just not how it works. Maybe you're trying to beat a dead camel... a tad too much as well, so to say?

There's no such a thing as free lunch. I'd suggest you just simply forget about perfection and reliability with expired film, and started thinking funky and experimentation. If not, one solution could be that of a seasoned teacher - have a roll of cheap and fresh film (Fomapan?) and a roll of expired for your students - teach them about the effect of expiration dates, storage conditions and untraditional developing methods, while having reliable shots from the fresh stock for reliability and comparison, for example.


About these images - effects of expiration date + exposure problems? Slide film cannot pick up as many info as negatives do, so in slides the exposure should be on-point. Last pictures especially hint me of metering problems in harsh contrast. Try less harsher light (around the time of Golden hours), Zone system or metering from your subject (meter close if don't have a spot meter), not including the background in the reading.

So I guess you're set for some experimentation - have fun cheers!

 

[Donald Qualls]

What would you do if you were in my place?

Since you have known good C-41 color developer, assuming you have enough of this film to test with, I'd try a roll or partial roll in the same E-6 process, but using C-41 color developer in place of the E-6 color developer. This should produce color positives with small color shifts (due to not quite right dye formation by CD-4 instead of the CD-3 you'd have in E-6). If that works, you'll have confirmed that either it was a one-time problem (like getting the chemicals out of order -- happens to the best of us) or your E-6 color developer has gone completely inert.

Another test would be to develop a black and white leader in the E-6 color developer -- you can do this in the light. If it turns black in a couple minutes, the color developer is probably fine and it was a process error; if not, that color developer is dead.

 

[mohmad khatab]

I'm lacking in my theoretical knowledge, but I still want to shoot some expired film and to play around with it, developing it the untraditional way... Therefore I tend just to do the experiment and see for myself. But it seems legit a starting point, yes.

Remember, people aren't buying expired film for perfect response and predictable results, it's just not how it works. Maybe you're trying to beat a dead camel... a tad too much as well, so to say?

There's no such a thing as free lunch. I'd suggest you just simply forget about perfection and reliability with expired film, and started thinking funky and experimentation. If not, one solution could be that of a seasoned teacher - have a roll of cheap and fresh film (Fomapan?) and a roll of expired for your students - teach them about the effect of expiration dates, storage conditions and untraditional developing methods, while having reliable shots from the fresh stock for reliability and comparison, for example.


About these images - effects of expiration date + exposure problems? Slide film cannot pick up as many info as negatives do, so in slides the exposure should be on-point. Last pictures especially hint me of metering problems in harsh contrast. Try less harsher light (around the time of Golden hours), Zone system or metering from your subject (meter close if don't have a spot meter), not including the background in the reading.

So I guess you're set for some experimentation - have fun cheers!

yes dear brother
Thank you for sharing that wonderful information.
- In fact, the amount of rolls that we got from that merchant is really huge, about 300 rolls, and it's really worth it to take advantage of it.
Yes, we went to the pyramids today, and we took a roll of that patch on the box number, as you advised me.
Starting tomorrow, I will prepare the chemistry (AGFA SCALA) as well as the chemistry (E6), and basically (BW) and (C41) chemistry are available,,
We will cut the filmed roll into 6 strips, and we will do many, many tests and experiments until we reach the optimal method for developing this roll.
Yes, we know that there is no free lunch. We have never sought a free runner's meal.
- I would like to draw your attention that I have never talked about that we want to get (perfect results), this phrase is not in our dictionary. Because we are far from ideal.
- We know exactly where we stand, and we know exactly what our limits are, and we know perfectly well that all the factors and circumstances are against us. There is no possibility to buy Fresh films, and there are no possibilities to buy high-quality chemical materials, we can hardly afford low-quality raw materials. But we can produce acceptable pictures to a large extent.
- All this does not mean that we should stop striving and trying to get the best results that we can get. (This is a legitimate ambition) and this forum is the home of any legitimate photographic ambition.
- There is nothing perfect in our country, so how can we dream of obtaining perfect results.?!!
- We are eagerly awaiting the results of your experiments in this regard.
- (I kept searching a lot on google for a map of Latvia until I finally found it).
Thank you ,,
My greetings .

 

[mohmad khatab]

Since you have known good C-41 color developer, assuming you have enough of this film to test with, I'd try a roll or partial roll in the same E-6 process, but using C-41 color developer in place of the E-6 color developer. This should produce color positives with small color shifts (due to not quite right dye formation by CD-4 instead of the CD-3 you'd have in E-6). If that works, you'll have confirmed that either it was a one-time problem (like getting the chemicals out of order -- happens to the best of us) or your E-6 color developer has gone completely inert.

Another test would be to develop a black and white leader in the E-6 color developer -- you can do this in the light. If it turns black in a couple minutes, the color developer is probably fine and it was a process error; if not, that color developer is dead.

My dear brother, respected Mr. Donald,
How are you, I hope you are fine.
Greetings to you and the good people of North Carolina.
- The chemistry of (E6) did not have any problems at all, it was used after that, and a fresh roll was developed and it was very good.
- Now, we have this movie, which was filmed on the ISO box number in the bright light of the pyramids.. It was cut into six strips.
If we assume the availability of chemistry (E6), (AGFA SCALA), (C41), and (BW)..
Tell me . What will you start?

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

You might want to check with @earlz who has done quite a bit of experimentation to process E6 film as transparencies using C41 chemistry before you do anything on your own:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-6-transparencies-with-c-41-chemicals.160510/

 

[mohmad khatab]

You might want to check with @earlz who has done quite a bit of experimentation to process E6 film as transparencies using C41 chemistry before you do anything on your own:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-6-transparencies-with-c-41-chemicals.160510/

I've read this whole thread and haven't found anything useful.
His idea of this topic is based on the fact that the photographer has a roll negative (C41), but he wants to produce a color positive transparency film similar to (E6) films.
No, I do not want that and I do not want to convert the color positive film (E6) to the color negative film (C41).
And I don't want to develop (E6) film by using (BW) developer as first developer and then using developer (C41) as color developer in order to produce positive transparency (this method is suitable for photographer who does not have E6 chemistry and does not want to spend a large amount of money to buy these) Chemistry when he wants to develop only one roll or so.

I have a completely different idea. My goal is completely different.
I basically have a positive color film (E6), and I would like to have a black and white film (negative) or (positive).
Yes, the idea may seem somewhat strange and unusual, but this idea was imposed by exceptional circumstances and imposed by the reality in which we live.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I've read this whole thread and haven't found anything useful.
His idea of this topic is based on the fact that the photographer has a roll negative (C41), but he wants to produce a color positive transparency film similar to (E6) films.

\facepalm

 

[Rudeofus]

\facepalm

No need to facepalm. Jordan uses moderately fresh film and tries to use C-41 chems to develop it. Mohmad has long expired film and tries to get usable images. If his film rolls are so poorly stored, that E6 developer yields blank slides, then Jordan's process will indeed not help.

PS: In the same way I would predict, that Agfa Scala process will yield unusable slides, but I have been surprised by Mohmad's experimental results more than once.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I edited one of them.

 

[mohmad khatab]

I edited one of them.
View attachment 285713

God bless you dear sir.
Thank you for your interest.
But I belong to a school (no modification).
With all due respect to everyone who disagrees with my approach, this is my photographic philosophy.
Modification can be resorted to only in the event of an emergency accident during filming or development.

 

[mohmad khatab]

No need to facepalm. Jordan uses moderately fresh film and tries to use C-41 chems to develop it. Mohmad has long expired film and tries to get usable images. If his film rolls are so poorly stored, that E6 developer yields blank slides, then Jordan's process will indeed not help.

PS: In the same way I would predict, that Agfa Scala process will yield unusable slides, but I have been surprised by Mohmad's experimental results more than once.

My dear teacher (Alexander's father)
I am very happy with the last sentence in your letter.
I hope I can always surprise you with successful experiences.

 

[mohmad khatab]

\facepalm

Indian brother.
I do not understand what you're saying .

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

God bless you dear sir.
Thank you for your interest.
But I belong to a school (no modification).
With all due respect to everyone who disagrees with my approach, this is my photographic philosophy.
Modification can be resorted to only in the event of an emergency accident during filming or development.

I thought you wanted to convert them all to BW??

 

[mohmad khatab]

I thought you wanted to convert them all to BW??

yes dear brother,
I wish I could convert them to black and white.
But in an anal way, so that the tape itself turns into a black and white negative.
What I mean is that the film itself will be converted to black and white, even if one day we want to print the analogue of this negative then there is a possibility.
I don't want to digitize the movie in black and white, I don't think about that at all
I resort to all possible analog solutions as if we are still in the 1960s without computers.

 

[Don_ih]

, even if one day we want to print the analogue of this negative

If you enlarge your c41 developed slide film on b&w paper, you get b&w prints.

 

[Truzi]

I remember a lot of threads on developing c41 as B&W, but not many on slide film (a quick search was fruitless). Most replies here seem to focus on color results - but he specifically wants B&W.

In post 32 he mentioned negatives as possibly acceptable.

I can't imagine it would be too difficult to develop E6 film as a B&W negative; simply using a B&W developer and fix (no bleach). I have no experience with this, but as others have said, you will have to experiment.

 

[mohmad khatab]

I remember a lot of threads on developing c41 as B&W, but not many on slide film (a quick search was fruitless). Most replies here seem to focus on color results - but he specifically wants B&W.

In post 32 he mentioned negatives as possibly acceptable.

I can't imagine it would be too difficult to develop E6 film as a B&W negative; simply using a B&W developer and fix (no bleach). I have no experience with this, but as others have said, you will have to experiment.

I remember a lot of threads on developing c41 as B&W, but not many on slide film (a quick search was fruitless). Most replies here seem to focus on color results - but he specifically wants B&W.

In post 32 he mentioned negatives as possibly acceptable.

I can't imagine it would be too difficult to develop E6 film as a B&W negative; simply using a B&W developer and fix (no bleach). I have no experience with this, but as others have said, you will have to experiment.

What will I say for a quick search?
We have 300 rolls (E6) that are expired and have been in very bad storage since the early nineties.
We want to take advantage of this wealth, as the price of a roll is approximately one and a quarter dollars.
How is this stock used?
Either by producing a color transparency film (which is an unrealistic option).
Or a black and white film (either positive or negative).
We do not want to get a color film negative via the C41 process.
Of course, if I wrote all this to the quick researcher, he would kick me in the back.
The situation is unique and has never happened before. There is no topic that matches this topic.
I'm not a new member here, I've been a member since 2012 and I've never had anything like this.
If you have an answer for this, I would be grateful.

 

[mohmad khatab]

If you enlarge your c41 developed slide film on b&w paper, you get b&w prints.

Yes, I understand your point, dear brother.
Practically speaking, your point of view is actually correct.
But that's the last detail we're thinking about right now.
Aside from printing, the main issue is, can we get black and white negative or positive film using E6 film?
This is the main goal.
Generally . Tomorrow I will start preparing the rest of the chemistry solutions needed to start the experiments.
And definitely I will tell you about any results I can get.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

can we get black and white negative or positive film using E6 film?
This is the main goal.

I did reversal processing of expired Kodak Elite Chrome 100 E6 film some time ago. So it's not impossible to make B&W slides from E6 film. I used my own first developer which requires tuning for each film. In your case since you've E6 chemistry, you can perhaps use E6 first developer itself as the first developer in your B&W reversal processing workflow and find out what it gives you. Of course, it is advisable to do this first with a small strip of film.

 

[Truzi]

What will I say for a quick search?
We have 300 rolls (E6) that are expired and have been in very bad storage since the early nineties.
We want to take advantage of this wealth, as the price of a roll is approximately one and a quarter dollars.
How is this stock used?
Either by producing a color transparency film (which is an unrealistic option).
Or a black and white film (either positive or negative).
We do not want to get a color film negative via the C41 process.
Of course, if I wrote all this to the quick researcher, he would kick me in the back.
The situation is unique and has never happened before. There is no topic that matches this topic.
I'm not a new member here, I've been a member since 2012 and I've never had anything like this.
If you have an answer for this, I would be grateful.

You might search for "develop slide as negative" or "develop e6 as B&W" or "develop e4 as B&W"

First, let me apologize if I misinterpret you. I know there is a language barrier.

You have color slide film, and want to develop it as B&W. You do not care if it is positive or negative. A negative is acceptable to you.

If I understand you correctly, what you are asking should not be too difficult for some of our more experienced members. I think many people are simply looking at "color" or "slide" and may be missing a simple solution. I am not good at alternate development, so cannot give good ideas.

I could not find much on this board, only this:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/how-to-develop-e-6-film-with-black-and-white-chemicals.175022/

This also:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-silver-color-filter-before-developing.85431/

PE mentioned removing the yellow here
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...r-before-developing.85431/page-2#post-1793227

 

[Don_ih]

At the very beginning of the thread, you showed that you successfully developed some of the film using a black and white developer. The contrast was low, so perhaps developing longer would boost it. Perhaps try a few different developers to see which one works best.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Increased agitation frequency will boost the contrast further, if needed.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Increased agitation frequency will boost the contrast further, if needed.

Yes, I agree with you my dear brother.

 

[mohmad khatab]

At the very beginning of the thread, you showed that you successfully developed some of the film using a black and white developer. The contrast was low, so perhaps developing longer would boost it. Perhaps try a few different developers to see which one works best.

Yes, this roller was developed by one of my trainees at his home, without him coordinating with me.
Basically he got that roll for free so he took that risk and used the Kalogen developer I had given him some time ago.
- All in all, today was a very hard day and I prepared a kit (E6), and I also prepared a first developer (AGFASCALA) and after that I felt very tired.
Tomorrow I will finish preparing the rest of that chemistry.
I'm going to give E6 one last chance, I'll try this process first, and I think it won't work with this lousy movie that's almost dead, but there's 1% hope, and I think it's worth the risk.
If the E6 process fails with this emulsion completely.
I will resort to the procedure (AGFASCALA), and here I must not forget the Greek colleague (whose name I do not remember) I think that there is no other Greek member that has been tested, this gentleman gave me an excellent recipe for bleach with permanganate that lasts for a long time and is very safe during bleaching if done Work at 20 degrees,, and this is a wonderful old Agfa patent.

And there I would like to thank all my dear colleagues who have tried to help me.
I would like to tell you that I am grateful to all and proud of all my respected colleagues.