How to tune a bw film for max printing !

The oposite is real easy : Unsharp and lousy contrast 5x7 prints from 35mm !
We all might have no need to learn more about!

Beside a good lens, beside a good darkroom workflow, beside the right format of films!

How to tune? The right film is a first step (don't try E.I. 600 with Delta 3200) to minimize grain and maximize print format!

The right developer is a good second step (don't change Ilford ID 11 and use Rodinal for minimize grain)
But here is the first problem : Rodinal may sharp your negatives but you get more massive
grain from Rodinal's tendency to a (most) grainy look!

What is better : small grain or more sharpness ?

That all is of course dependable from each photographers preference! Some feel fine from
grainy look, some feel fine from tonals.....some like it indeed unsharp and want to hear
how to get real unsharpness AND MOST GRAIN WITH BW ON 5X7 PRINTS?

THAT IS "EVERYBODYS BABY" ("darling" for your englishmen)!

So THE very first step should be that I define what a max. print (to me)is ! From what max. size it should be and from what characteristics!

A max. sized bw print to me is a print " normaly not possible " without the use of next higher film format! In concern of resolution AND normal (small) grain and normal contrast!

A max. bw print in regards of perfect, absolute and "never better seen" and outstanding
tonals is NOT MY PRIORITY!

SO EVERY PHOTOGRAPHER HAS HIS OWN "DARLING" - and that is a fine thing!

Is sharpness = resolution (edge effects for example) NO IT ISN'T! (pseudo sharpness)
Can high contrasts guarante high resolution NO THERE IS NO MORE RESOLUTION FROM!
But extreme low contrast can of course Smaller the resolution!

What is Resolution btw? Resolution is the Tower clock seen from a cropping image !
In comparison from different examples the shot where you can read 15:07 quite clear is from more resolution!
The shot that would show clear the indicator of the correct second would be the best !
But there is allways No indicator for seconds (it is just to make it more clear)!
Resolution is the information within a bw negative. A tonal range of a wide spreat is of course an important part of resolution also! But here is a real compromis!

THERE is one rule that will help to tune films from a general step = exposure long/
develop short!
In darkroom , while film developing, that is allways pulling ! But pulling is also in regards
of lower contrast - and real low contrasts can smaller the resolution itself = the delema!

AND HERE IS THE END OF THAT STORY FRIENDS = NOT REALY POSSIBLE

what you can make is the following : You generally have the need of lower E.I.
(ISO 25) for example with low speed films! You can pull those films to the max.
The max. is the point were contrast come too low !
And you of course pull with finest grain developers! Tonal experts might find here the point
to calibrate tonals to the limit (for max. of resolution) but this workflow is restricted in general!

What one have a need of would be a bw film with characteristics of real good contrast
(high contrast) and characteristics in regards of " holding lot of that original high contrast
during pull development" - but this is not possible in relative values!
Pulling will allways cost much contrast (extreme pulling development of more than
1E.V. lost of speed)!

So normal bw films can be tuned a bit (from general workflow during shooting - a tripod is a most) but the use of perceptol is recomanded beside other developers!

You have the need of high contrast before pull development!

That is one of other reasons for using microfilms if it is going about :

High resolution photographs - today !!!!!!!!!!!!

Any "secret hints " with normal low speed bw film and most "secret" developer combinations you perhaps will tell here ?

with regards

How to tune :
Tuna fish
Tuning fork
How about just try it and see..no 2 peoples results are the same ano magic bullets

Peter Schrager said:

How to tune :
Tuna fish
Tuning fork
How about just try it and see..no 2 peoples results are the same ano magic bullets

Click to expand...

You rightly point out that Peter - thanks:
THERE is nothing good exept someone does it!

with regards

PS : Just out of curiosity - is there a universe of darkrooms where the question is not about maximize grain, higher contrast, pushhing to higher ISO ?
BTW : Pushing can be quite interisting (up to the limit I did it also)!

An answer is simple and obvious. TMAX-100 or Delta-100 your choice, D-76 1:1 or ID-11 your choice. EI 50 to ensure shadow detail. Tripod if shutter speed is about 1/60 or slower. Good light on your subject to make the picture interesting.

These are just suggestions to illustrate the kind of approach that will tend to make negatives that can be printed large.

Bill Burk said:

An answer is simple and obvious. TMAX-100 or Delta-100 your choice, D-76 1:1 or ID-11 your choice. EI 50 to ensure shadow detail. Tripod if shutter speed is about 1/60 or slower. Good light on your subject to make the picture interesting.

These are just suggestions to illustrate the kind of approach that will tend to make negatives that can be printed large.

Click to expand...

He he.....Bill Burk....? let us both agree with the following :
To print a picture on a large format the absolute premise should be :

Is a shot worth to be printed! Next step should be : Is it also worth to be printed big! (some shots indeed have a different effect on the recipient if they are too big from printing - then a smaller format is better ) altough such picture looks phantastic!
The only Person who never cares about questions in regards of too big?-
I know is Andreas Gursky.....!

WITH regards!

To some people "too big" or "too expensive" concerning pricing are NO categories any longer!

Bill Burk said:

An answer is simple and obvious. TMAX-100 or Delta-100 your choice, D-76 1:1 or ID-11 your choice. EI 50 to ensure shadow detail. Tripod if shutter speed is about 1/60 or slower. Good light on your subject to make the picture interesting.

These are just suggestions to illustrate the kind of approach that will tend to make negatives that can be printed large.

Click to expand...

Forgetting to state Bill (busy interims time) sorry - Tgrain films at box speed 100 WITH E.I. ISO 50
developed with D76 - what is the max. print format you feel fine from 4 x 5 format?
Let's say if costs would be out of interest! What would be the limit you would state :
That is not good - there is of course the need of 8x10 films?

with regards!

I would say large prints like 20x24 inches would be fine from 4x5 400 speed film or 35mm 100 speed film.

But I have some shots I love taken on 35mm thousand speed film that I think only look good at postcard size.

First of all do not tune the film! Instead get your light meter calibrated by a technician, shoot at box speed and adjust the development for the contrast and density you want. Using the Zone System with a spot meter will provide better results than an averaging light meter for anything other then average lighting situations.

For my secret, I like to make my negatives so that they could be printed large, even though my standard series size is 11x14. I assume one day someone will want a big print and I want it to be possible.

So I say, make it better than you need—make it good for future generations to enjoy.

trendland, you mentioned 6x9 at f/22 and 1/100. You can use the slower speeds if you want to break my rule. After all a contact print from 6x9 hides a lot of mistakes.

I remember well the days of Kodachrome and often joked about being a member in good standing of the 1/60 at f/5.6 club.

Bill Burk said:

I would say large prints like 20x24 inches would be fine from 4x5 400 speed film or 35mm 100 speed film.

But I have some shots I love taken on 35mm thousand speed film that I think only look good at postcard size.

Click to expand...

...... yes postcard size.....but Bill : "Perhaps you should not be too strong with some of your
35mm shots"!
I have the impression (since years) that for postcard size (OK perhaps a smaler sized postcard)
these fine tools are absolute sufficiant with plastic lens :


......ähhh - you want shot in color? Why ......Aha you have to shot wedding

No problem at all :

.......a wedding camera!

But OK (I had a guess on that) with 4x5 = ISO 400 films for you are confortable up to higher print formats! No wonder about regading the squere of 4x5 = 14,2xxx times X the squere of 35mm!

with regards

Bill Burk said:

For my secret, I like to make my negatives so that they could be printed large, even though my standard series size is 11x14. I assume one day someone will want a big print and I want it to be possible.

So I say, make it better than you need—make it good for future generations to enjoy.

trendland, you mentioned 6x9 at f/22 and 1/100. You can use the slower speeds if you want to break my rule. After all a contact print from 6x9 hides a lot of mistakes.

I remember well the days of Kodachrome and often joked about being a member in good standing of the 1/60 at f/5.6 club.

Click to expand...

It is regardless of this extreme fine 6 x 9 Format not easy to use the Voigtländer for high quality photography at all! But I find out that it is my duty to prove for myself that it is possible!
Before I order my P67II at the local dealer!
Grandpa made fine shots with this camera! Also nightshots from avaible light!
I wonder about but that was the year 1928 - the year before the big crash!





with regards

PS : Main problem (to me) = its viewfinder


......in sunlight it is hart to identify the horizon! But here in the picture it looks real big - the original size of it is a quarter size of a stamp from old format:

Sirius Glass said:

First of all do not tune the film! Instead get your light meter calibrated by a technician, shoot at box speed and adjust the development for the contrast and density you want. Using the Zone System with a spot meter will provide better results than an averaging light meter for anything other then average lighting situations.

Click to expand...

Quite right "Sirius Glass" and after doing all this : Tune your Films !!

with regards

trendland said:

Quite right "Sirius Glass" and after doing all this : Tune your Films !!

with regards

Click to expand...

You are beyond help. I cannot help someone who is unwilling to learn. With disregards.

Sirius Glass said:

You are beyond help. I cannot help someone who is unwilling to learn. With disregards.

Click to expand...

Sirius Glass I guess you are a good teacher but I am also no trainee?
That is mostly not the best combination!

Seriously your approach is fine! Box speed - then optimizing all parameters for best results!
If the print format has to be much more great = switch to higher format!
35mm --> 120 film --> 9x12/4x5 -->13x18/5x7 --> 8x10 !
But this is allway ending with 8x10! No worry about - my intention is not to print such great that
I need much more quality because 8x10 would be too lousy from all!

No no - I realy need not such big prints - no worry about

My format wich would support enough resolution, for biggest prints I ever can imagine is
13x18!

But 4x5 is also fine enough - but it depends!

The intention here is to come from lower format up to the next higher format!
It is of course not possible because higher format NEED higher format indeed!
But it don't have to replaced generaly!

In short to tune a film in concern of more resolution/smaler grain/ to the disadvantage of a tollerable lost of contrast - guess it is quite clear now TEACHER
WITH REGARDS!

PS : The tools to "Tune" a film are mentioned in #1 and I am quite experienced with!
In short : microfilms, microfilms,microfilms but some other stuff can also came up to higher levels
Delta 100 with perceptol BTW (ISO25) gues you will not try because you "snap" your higher format
then! So I need no advice for doing of course!
Why then asking - OK to ASK will allways cost no money - perhaps some others do it the same way?
Also others can come up to the idea of "tuning Films"!

Ok. Trendland. You win. Happy?
As you are very expressive in every other thread i come across, what else to do?
Anyway, someone had to be the first on my Ignore List.
I am gonna go watch Bob Ross now and cry myself to sleep thinking about all the sick ways you have raped my brain.
Peace

Chris seriously - there are just two thinks I realy don't like!
The first thing is telling one what he has to do and what he has not to do! That may be possible
in a metro (if someone kicks you on the food twice) - to say then :" Don't do this again pls."!
The second is to use a speach with the help of words one can not write (normaly)!
And this "normaly" stands for all sitiations one should imagine! There is no exeption in live for use
some words like I sometimes here on Photrio with the help of abriviations!
My tollerance for that is extreme I know! But who cares about? There is a good law :
To call a moderator!???
But I guess we all are no childs any more - right! I wouldn't do that (call a moderator)
Who I AM - to need the help of moderators!

So everything is fine Chriss77!

with greetings

PS : There is also a 3. issue : To comment off topic in threads in a form to talk about the person
who is stating this or that - perhaps one can't feel fine with?

And if the opinium of anyone here is not from mainstream (but from serious arguments)
that is not "trolling" or "spammiing" and I will not google what this means! It is more the oposite
right? Of topic comments in two sentences with the content to criticizing someone? And without regarding details of a theme!
That should more fall under the synonym "troll" "spam" - yeah?

But don't care so much Chris - feel fine and I see no problem at this time again!

if you need something grainless this thread might help ..

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/grainless-mod-note-satire.115775/
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/grainless-mod-note-satire.115775/page-7#post-1530937

[QUOTE="Bill Burk, post: 2171217, member: 38681

trendland, you mentioned 6x9 at f/22 and 1/100. You can use the slower speeds if you want to break my rule. After all a contact print from 6x9 hides a lot of mistakes.

[/QUOTE]

BTW : Yesterday I had a rummage between old negatives ! Then I found also old scans
of 6x9 (hope from 6x9) bad remind - but this shot is for sure from 6x9 =



with regards

PS : In general a viewfinder from old type without rangefinder is a nice tool for landscape!
The 6x9 format has a huge space in comparison to 35mm ! So normal films in bw will give
fine quality!
But in the lower distance it is a hart job - belive me! To come to nearly sharp shots is easy
(AS you stated : fine in contact printing) to come to sharpness for smal poster prints it may
be OK (the little incorectness from failed focussing is first seen in smaler poster print then)
But with max. printing it is just unsharp! Postcard is absolute sharp/ 20x30 is looking quite
OK (without glasses) 30x40 isn't looking good/ 1m x 140cm is telling you quite clear
(are you able to focus? ......seams not so boy...)
That all is in regard of small distance because the deep of field scales at 1,2 m - 3m can serve
you profit from f/16 and f22 but then you need correct 1,35m and not 2,10 Meter!!
It is not the big task to messure manuell:


But the scales onto the lens are not very precise = to estimate 2,75 m distance on a Voigtländer lens scale out of the year 1928 between 2m next is 5m is one thing but in reality 2m onto the scale can be 1,85m and 5 m onto the lens scale can be 7m in reality???

But this shot is sharp! (scan is just lousy)!

Pentax 67 is for a photograpers experience from "kindergarden" dificulty in comparison!

Brainless not grainless?

One of my favourite bands have an awesome song called "Talking loud and saying nothing." Just thought I should mention it here.

Folks sometimes here is a lack of niveau.

with regards.......

jnantz said:

if you need something grainless this thread might help ..

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/grainless-mod-note-satire.115775/
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/grainless-mod-note-satire.115775/page-7#post-1530937

Click to expand...

Aha I see! Well - most photographer discused Pyro developers in regard of advantages from
exposure compensation! This discussion is about decades!
And it is right! Compensation of overexposure and general high contrast can be done in a good
manner.
The point in regard of smaller grain is different (if you compare with perceptol)!!
Of course Pyro developers are fine grain developers but it is what I would call :
pseudo fine grain that is also the fact with edge effects from Pyro = pseudo sharpness!
Because the stain of pyro set a mask over the film grain and let it shine much more
smoth / in addition lower contrast!
Well one of course could say perceptol is also then a pseudo fine grain developer!
Contrast is lower = let the grain "shine" more smouth = no more resolution!

If there would not be the difference from general lost of speed (~1 stop) with perceptol!
This mechanism (to compensate via exposure [E.I ISO 25 with PanF for example])
is more responcible (beside other issues at the chemical side) that the grain comes smaller
and CAN higher resolution also (dependable from value of lost of contrast)!

I remember PanF with E.I. ISO 3 and EI ISO 6 and folks belive me :
There is not more resolution then = isufficient contrast!

with regards

trendland said:

Aha I see!
<...>
with regards

Click to expand...

The quote explaining the 2 images printed together would render a sharp image;

sharpness and grainlessness is over rated, unless it isn't .

Kevin Caulfield said:

Brainless not grainless?

Click to expand...

No, there is some good information in that thread. Im still waiting for the correct dung to be delivered.

jnantz said:

The quote explaining the 2 images printed together would render a sharp image;

sharpness and grainlessness is over rated, unless it isn't .



No, there is some good information in that thread. Im still waiting for the correct dung to be delivered.

Click to expand...

Guess the title can be unclear to avoid missunderstandings one also can say :
How to tune a bw film for printing max. sized prints!

BTW: If you shot ISO 400 films 35mm and want to print 1m x 140cm you of course have to think
about smaller grain, resolution! Beside the optical characteristics of your lens (only top lenses) but the lens isn't the topic here!

With the best microfilms and a good developer the results from lower E.I may allow to print
1m sizes from 35mm and if you want to go a little above of 1m you also can have a little grainy
look wich is that what some like - playing with film!
Of course the simple argument against is : next higher format!
But there it can be the same play : 140 cm x 175cm for example with 120 film 6 x 8 !
Well - then you will neet this



....but where should be the problem? Because one would not print in that size 8times a week!

And if one is printing big one of course would print best negative one own! So some hint in concern of better workflow using camera, light meter a.s.o. is just nice....!

with regards

PS: Sad if all best shots then are from Fomapan 400 - pushed up with Rodinal to higher ISO..!

Step No. 1: Have an image that is worthy of putting on film.

Step No. 2: Figure out one's way of getting the image in whatever final form one wants.

Step No.3: Do it.