How to get grain-free black and white negatives?

cliveh · May 14, 2016

Let me repeat XP2 - zero grain.

removed account4 · May 14, 2016

hi clive
yup.

MartinCrabtree · May 14, 2016

How does XP2 act when processed in traditional B&W chemicals? Say Rodinal?

Gerald C Koch · May 14, 2016

MartinCrabtree said:
How does XP2 act when processed in traditional B&W chemicals? Say Rodinal?

XP2 is a chromogenic film and intended to be processed in C-41 chemicals. If you attempt to process it in conventional B&W developers you will probably get thin, low contrast negatives.

Ian Grant · May 15, 2016

TheFlyingCamera said:
In all seriousness, use cooler temperatures for longer times (68-75 F is good - if you run hotter, you'll really punch up the grain). Use more dilute developer solutions. Use fine-grain and grain-masking developers, like Pyrocat HD. And as mentioned before, use bigger negatives or print smaller. Expecting a 16x20 print from a 35mm negative to be grainless is like expecting an elephant to fit in the trunk of a VW Beetle.

Within the 18º-30ºC temperature range there's no increase in film grain at the higher end of the range reducing the time to compensate for the increased temperature, with one proviso the temperature must be kept constant throughout the process cycle including washing.

When I'm in Turkey I process at 27ºC as that's the water temperature, air temperature is usually higher, and there's no difference in grain size or graininess between those negative and the ones I shoot in the UK, that's with a variety of B&W films, Ilford, Fuji, Foma and Kodak.

However with some less well hardened films lower temperatures cause less swelling of the gelatin and at higher temperatures sudden temperature changes cause problems with surface artifacts (Kodak's term), it's also been termed micro or incipient reticulation, and cause graininess in prints and scans. It's purely a surface effect on the gelatin super-coat and sometimes also the anti-curl layer on the reverse of some 120 film, it doesn't change the actual grain structure.

Ian

petepictures · Feb 21, 2017

mindthemix said:
Acros 100 EI400 in Rodinal 1:100 stand development for 2 hours

View attachment 156857

You must be using some post production noise removal filters?

Bill Burk · Feb 25, 2017

petepictures said:
You must be using some post production noise removal filters?

Looks more like @mindthemix shot 120 6x6 format... and these are real results, realistic expectations.

It illustrates the wise advice to shoot larger format if you want less grain. A very simple, straightforward suggestion that will give you those results.

Gerald C Koch · Feb 25, 2017

The idea that you can achieve totally grainless images is a fiction. Grain is inherent in the photographic process. You cannot escape it entirely. There are developers that produce finer grain but at the cost of lower resolution.

Sirius Glass · Feb 25, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Shoot digital!

Instead of gain you will get pixelation.

haziz · Feb 26, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
The idea that you can achieve totally grainless images is a fiction. Grain is inherent in the photographic process. You cannot escape it entirely. There are developers that produce finer grain but at the cost of lower resolution.

Technically correct, but I would challenge you to see any grain in an 8x10 contact print! Or for that matter, most enlargements from 4x5. If you want grainless, go to a larger format.

Richard Searle · Feb 26, 2017

Don't stand so close to the print!

Doremus Scudder · Feb 26, 2017

Richard Searle said:
Don't stand so close to the print!

Hilarious!

"Grainless" simply means that your eye cannot resolve any grain in the print (there are always silver grains making up the image). This is achievable several ways, including the one mentioned above.

Grain-reducing measures (in no particular order):

1. Precise temperature control throughout processing, including washing.
2. T-grain film (T-Max/Delta)
3. Slower film
4. Larger film
5. Smaller enlargements/greater viewing distance
6. Grain-masking developers, i.e., staining developers like PMK of Pyrocat
7. Developer choice. "Fine-grain" high sulfite developers soften grain; others seem to produce finer grain.
8. Take off your glasses

Best,

Doremus

Gerald C Koch · Feb 26, 2017

I like to point out to people that fuss about grain in a print. What you THINK is grain is actually the spaces between grains in the negative. You cannot see the actual grains in the negative; it is gone in the print. Then if I am feeling a bit peevish that day I might suggest they take up watercolors.

petepictures · Mar 14, 2017

Oh, man, I am trying to get smallest possible grain from a super 8mm film. for the other formats I am not really bothered much from the grain.

John Wiegerink · Mar 14, 2017

petepictures said:
Oh, man, I am trying to get smallest possible grain from a super 8mm film. for the other formats I am not really bothered much from the grain.

Are you using Super8 film for enlarging or scanning? For projection it wouldn't matter much if the grain were present.

petepictures · Mar 14, 2017

John Wiegerink said:
Are you using Super8 film for enlarging or scanning? For projection it wouldn't matter much if the grain were present.

I am scanning , digitising it,to movie files, and yes it matters a lot, as you can see from the scanning on top, its a big grain.

petepictures · Mar 14, 2017

John Wiegerink said:
Are you using Super8 film for enlarging or scanning? For projection it wouldn't matter much if the grain were present.

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 14, 2017

That film looks reticulated.

John Wiegerink · Mar 14, 2017

Thomas might be right. It also looks like it might just be slightly over-developed by the looks of the highlights. If so, that can also add to the large grain you are seeing.

btaylor · Mar 14, 2017

Oh, Super8. That's a really tiny frame. Back in the day I could approach 16mm quality in S8 with Kodachrome 40 and exacting exposure. A lot of people assumed it was 16mm. But K40 is no more. The last S8 I shot was about a year ago, 7266 Tri-X. It's pretty grainy stuff, not a lot you can do about it. I have seen programs that reduce the perception of grain significantly in digital post-processing of MP footage. That's probably the way to go. I'm talking about moving pictures, not stills.

twelvetone12 · Mar 14, 2017

Is that Tri-X? It seems a pretty typical grain for this film in super8. Try 50D and you will be stunned!

cliveh · Mar 14, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
The idea that you can achieve totally grainless images is a fiction. Grain is inherent in the photographic process. You cannot escape it entirely. There are developers that produce finer grain but at the cost of lower resolution.

XP2.

removed account4 · Mar 14, 2017

OP
good luck !
i always liked grain, it makes photographs a bitmore interesting ..
but to each their own ..

john

petepictures · Mar 16, 2017

Its AGFA Scala 200

Ces1um · Mar 25, 2017

jnanian said:
OP
good luck !
i always liked grain, it makes photographs a bitmore interesting ..
but to each their own ..

john

Totally agree! I go out of my way FOR grain and high contrast. And to each their own.

How to get grain-free black and white negatives?

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