How to (consistently) make positive E-6 transparencies with C-41 chemicals

[Photo Engineer]

My first observation is that your picture order does not match the ISOs listed. The ISO 200 should be darker and the ISO 25 should be lighter.

My second observation is that I'm not sure Iron Out is a good reversal bath. It might do something to Iron, but I'm not sure it will properly fog the AgX in the emulsion.

PE

 

[grainyvision]

The ISOs are in the right order, but I scanned for "best light" rather than a consistent exposure in scanning. Basically want to demonstrate the best image you can get out of it, since projection is pretty much out the window either way.

Iron Out does work for standard B/W film. I use it with Ortho Litho film as a substitute for pre/post flashing for better contrast and to eek out a tiny bit more shadow detail from the very slow film. I'm confident it can fog silver, though I can't find much info on how much is needed nor the amount of time/temperature needed, especially for the dense color emulsions. Now, that being said, I of course have no idea if damage and color problems can come from using this on color emulsions

edit: No, you're right. The ISOs are in the opposite order. 200, 100, 50, 25

 

[grainyvision]

New run of tests, this time with this formula:

All at 101F
* Dektol 1+1, 7 minutes, 30s initial agitation, 10s agitation per 30s
* Water stop
* Very quick re-exposure (~30s per film)
* C-41 develop, 4m30s, 30s initial agitation, 10s agitation per 30s (going against Kodak recommendations, which is for 2x per 15s)
* C-41 bleach, 8 minutes
* C-41 fix 6m30s

I tested 4 films in this. Velvia 50, Provia 100F, Lomo Color Negative 100, and Fuji Pro 400h. Results were overall pretty interesting. Dektol 1+1 seems to be closer to "correct" than Dektol 1+3 and HC-110 dil A. All tests conducted on a boring cloudy day (just before raining) with a Pen D3 camera. All ISO examples for E-6 are processed at 7650K/+23 tint. For C-41 films, the ISO tests are processed using 2750K/-4 tint. All lit by daylight backlight for scanning. Examples are "corrected" by opening levels and setting the white/black point of each R/G/B channel until they are just beginning to clip in the image area. Non-ISO examples are processed for "best image"

Provia 100F:
As always, this is the best looking one. Results look very natural, with a bit of blue cast. With this process, it looks pretty close to box speed, but has a surprising amount of over exposure latitude for slide film. Even +2 stops was still pretty reasonable. This would probably look better at 7m30s or 8m in the first developer, as ISO 50 actually looks a bit better despite some blown highlights.
ISO 100:


ISO 50:


Random test picture:


colors are punchy and nice, with a slight greenish-blue cast with under exposure, (such as -2 stops)

Velvia 50:
Velvia always seems to be the most tricky film with this x-pro reversal process. In HC-110 previously, it will have a thick magenta cast. Apparently with Dektol 1+1, it instead goes to green cast. The cast seems more workable than with HC-110. Colors are really saturated, with greens being especially deep, though also being corrected away due to the green cast. With under exposure it will go blue.

ISO 50:


ISO 25:


ISO 200:


"Best image" version of ISO 50:


Test shot:



Lomo Color Negative 100
This ended up looking weird, well, more weird than C-41 films usually look in this. Really poor colors and density. I wasn't a fan. Also came out very pink, even with the insane whitepoint set on my DSLR when scanning

ISO 100:


ISO 400


Test shot:



Fuji Pro 400H:
This one took my by surprise. I've never used this film before in this process, so wasn't sure what to expect. Colors are punchy to the raw eye, and with a raw scan. However, scanning while keeping these colors is quite difficult. The raw scans look better than white/black point processed.

ISO 400:


ISO 400 raw (no processing):


Test shot 1:


Test shot 2:



Notes for the looks of the film:

The black strip (ie, where I cut it pulling a strip from the camera) seemed to be improperly fogged on all films. Provia was a very dark blue, rather than nearly opaque black. Velvia was a dark brownish green, with some streaking and uneven density. The Pro 400H seemed to be proper, though the max density still didn't seem very dark. The CN100 max density seemed especially weak.

The white strip (ie, min density/ the leader used for loading into the camera in daylight) for the C-41 films looks correct. However, Provia and Velvia both had a very weak tint to it. I'm not sure if this is just something I'd not noticed before, or something with this process, but provia had a very slight blue tint and velvia a very slight green tint. Both tints are more intense when wet.

 

[georgegrosu]

earlz, I do not get in your reversible processing.
I appreciate the fact that you took a color scale but I do not understand why you shoot it in the against daylight?
In many frames over half is the pavement in photograme?
Now I'll tell you what my first boss said to me: "A color picture must be like a parrot."
Maybe he'll help you with something.

George

 

[grainyvision]

I don't have a studio, and too lazy to setup a tripod 90% of the time, so I use a table outside. I shoot it to include some of the sky intentionally, to see the contrast and highlight behavior. Also to have more reliable comparisons. Shooting in sunny shadow doesn't look that much different than cloudy "shadow", but if I only shoot in sun, then I'm limited to test shots during a sunny day from ~3pm-7pm for consistent look.

 

[georgegrosu]

earlz, if I look at your pictures I think you should need a safe tripod.
Once you have some good pictures in the sun, you can go to against daylight and night pictures .....
You have to see that for an E6 film you can make good pictures.
Are the scans shown calibrated to be as close as possible to the film image?
Are the scans presented to you calibrated to be as close as possible to the film image?
I do not really understand why you use multiple types of films?
I would go with a film E6 until I get good results, or if I think the film type does not good results, change it.

George

 

[grainyvision]

I use multiple types of films because they all respond different. Provia is the best, in that it almost always has correct color balance. Other types of film are harder in this process, but I also hope to eventually use other types of film reliably in this process. The C-41 films were just because I had a 1L bottle of C-41 developer and thus needed to use it either way. Might as well process 4 films rather than 2 and waste half the developer and extra time. Was interested in the results with Dektol as I've not tried Dektol with C-41 films before. The scans are not calibrated to be as close to the film as possible and I say what the process is. Some are just simple curve adjustments to make the scan match the contrast you'd see with your eyes and eliminate some of the cast. Others are "best image" and basically the best I can make the scan look, without care for calibration.

And you're missing the point about the sun. I basically shoot these test films in strips (not using the entire roll) and basically on-demand a few hours before processing them. Sometimes it's not sunny. Sometimes I don't have free time in the magical 3-6pm period. So, I always shoot in shadow so that I can shoot from ~10am-6pm and still get similar (comparable) results regardless of the weather.

Either way, my next plan after comparing some homebrew E-6 formulas is to try adding a small amount of potassium iodide and sodium thiocynate to the first developer, and probably using 1+1 dektol again, and processing for 8m. The iodide should work to correct the blue cast by slowing down development of the top layer (blue) while leaving the lower layers mostly untouched. The thiocyanate should work to decrease grain and fog and thus give me better true blacks and hopefully leave the highlights actually clear. I'll also fog for a bit longer. Next time I'll probably only process 2 films at a time. I think Provia and Velvia again. Also the homebrew E-6 formula uses Phenidone and HQ, while Dektol uses Metol and HQ. The actual ratios when mixed 1+1 look comparable though, so I think development speed is enough even if the agents differ. Unfortunately I can't find anything about what HC-110 might need other than that it is a Phenidone-HQ developer. I think HC-110 A might still be the better match for this than Dektol. HC-110 produces appropriate (higher than Dektol) contrast but with green or magenta color casts on anything not Provia. HC-110 also displays finer grain, better blacks, and true clear highlights. I think the correction for HC-110 might actually just be some iodide and/or bromide. I know iodide slows down surface (blue and maybe green) development, but unsure what bromide does for color balance, if anything.

I also still think Iron Out (sodium dithionite) is a suitable substitute for re-exposure, but requires more, maybe 10g per 1L. It also works as a developing agent in basic solutions, but the contaminate in it is sodium metabisulfite, so the solution would end up being acidic which should prevent development (as least according to some clip tests I've done). dithionite decays rapidly in acidic solutions though, and so definitely would not keep for more than 1 hour after mixing. Dithionite could avoid the annoying "bubble" re-exposure issue which is especially prevalent on high speed C-41 films where a bubble on the film forms a lens which focuses the light on a ring and solarizes the film under it. (you can see that in the 400H example above)

 

[georgegrosu]

earlz, look in the inbox and say which picture looks closer to the image in your tests?

George

 

[ZorkiKat]

I tried making a few experiments with DIY reversal baths in the past.

I now have some sodium thiocyanate for the first developer. Would mixing this with Dektol make for a better first developer than just plain Dektol? I also used Dektol/D72 in the past as first developer, using the 1+3 dilution, and with some lye added to increase its pH. Timing varied from 5-8 minutes at 38C.

For the second/colour developer, I've tried using C41 as well as RA-4 paper developer. The latter used CD3 as its developing agent. Anyone else here try it before? Abnout a decade ago,I had posted here positives developed in RA4 developer. The RA4 I get now is formulated differently. What used to be a three part developer solution is now just a single concentrated solution. I have Fujifilm's PR chemistry. I am still experimenting how dilute this suitably for reversal development, as well as what could be added as solvents to make it work with more contrast.

 

[grainyvision]

I tried making a few experiments with DIY reversal baths in the past.

I now have some sodium thiocyanate for the first developer. Would mixing this with Dektol make for a better first developer than just plain Dektol? I also used Dektol/D72 in the past as first developer, using the 1+3 dilution, and with some lye added to increase its pH. Timing varied from 5-8 minutes at 38C.

For the second/colour developer, I've tried using C41 as well as RA-4 paper developer. The latter used CD3 as its developing agent. Anyone else here try it before? Abnout a decade ago,I had posted here positives developed in RA4 developer. The RA4 I get now is formulated differently. What used to be a three part developer solution is now just a single concentrated solution. I have Fujifilm's PR chemistry. I am still experimenting how dilute this suitably for reversal development, as well as what could be added as solvents to make it work with more contrast.

According to PE, thiocyanate might work to make it finer grain and potentially deeper blacks/clear whites. No idea what amount to start with for adding to Dektol though. A very (VERY) small amount of iodide might also help to correct the color balance of Dektol to leave the results with less blue cast, but we're talking about a few ml of a 0.1% solution, if that.

I haven't tried RA-4 developer yet, but I've heard it needs some modifications to get proper color saturation. Results I've seen with it unmodified look pretty flat with dull colors.

Also, unsure which RA-4 developer you're using, but Kodak Ektacolor RA-4 developer has very good keeping properties and comes as a 3-part kit. It's recommended to mix it all at one time (iirc 10L) because the part C of the kit will decay within a week or two because it has no preservatives... but I've had the same RA-4 developer for around 9 months now just sitting in plain 5L chemical containers. Only difference I've noticed is a slight color change of the solution despite the 5L container being only half-full for several months now. From what I've seen in passing, E-6 CD should have more CD-3, a higher pH, and more overall activity than RA-4.

 

[feral_capitalist]

Hi, new member here. I've been lurking here for about a year and after finally finding a thread like this for cross process of E6, I decided to join.

I work part-time as a photo lab tech doing C41/RA-4 printing. That means free waste chemistry! I shoot 5x13,4x5/120 in my spare time and have done numerous cross processing experiments with fuji crystal archive II, C41 reversal and RA-4 reversal with e6 films. No, this is not what I do for my job, so this is purely rough and experimental. I've shot some 1994 exp. kodak ektrachrome dup. film that's ISO 1-3, dev in hc110 B for 40 mins@70F, exhausted RA-4 CD 20min@102F, BF 15min@102F, STB and formalin afterwards and got velvia-like colors (a bit on the magenta side due to the pH).

I agree PE is right. I'd recommend RA-4 over C41 due to the compatible dye couplers for long term stability and perhaps better color stabilization (pH is not yet there)? I also use a homebrew formalin stabilizer since RA-4 most likely stabilizes the paper rather than film emulsions (so that I can come back in a year or 2 and compare results). I've got old kodak E6 manuals showing various degrees of color shifts based on compensating chemistry. If I remember right, the pH imbalance of the E6 CD can swing the green/magenta color (earlz above post). Not quite sure on the blue/yellow, that could just be a temperature fluctuation...

Titrating some HCL/NaOH to balance the pH (and white balance) could be a viable option...

 

[grainyvision]

I'm surprised you got accurate colors at 70F for the first developer. When I tried this with both Velvia and Provide I was missing an entire side of the color spectrum (ie, only purple developed). My process iirc was 1 hour stand development at room temp. If you did agitation then maybe that was the fault with my process, though temperature management for me is easy enough that I prefer to develop things faster now than I did then. That's interesting about using RA-4 CD. I've considered using it but have heard it gives worse results than C-41 CD.

For my uses, I don't care greatly about color stability, though that may be changing since I've figured out a relatively decent way to do RA-4 reversal. And yes, I found a posting somewhere on the internet about slide film for use in microscopes which detailed all of the things that can go wrong, and pH of color developer was one of the things that can tilt the green/magenta balance. Honestly, I've taken a break from experimenting with this because I've had too much fun experimenting with prints (lith printing internegatives for moody B/W prints from slide, RA-4 reversal) and have grown tired of failures with actual film I care about in this process. I still consider it safe to shoot Provia 100F and use this process, but pretty much every other film has various artifacts that show up. Ektachrome goes green, Velvia goes magenta. If the chemicals aren't super fresh, Provia goes blue.

I did get a steal on a lot of ancient but well stored slide film (GAF) that is not E-6 compatible where the emulsion will melt off at 80F. I will probably run some trials on using C-41 reversal with that film. I also have tried using ECP-2 film (cine print film) in standard E-6 processing. It develops a contrasty silver image, but the E-6 color developer doesn't develop any color AT ALL. The film will come out perfectly clear after bleaching. I plan on trying C-41 reversal with that as well, as I know that C-41 color developer does make color when processed as a negative.

Basically I probably won't be running many more experiments with this with true E-6 slide film. I will use it for cross processing though of other films, like C-41, ECP-2, and this GAF slide film to see what results I can get. C-41 film especially can be interesting and give a unique look depending on the film stock, and it seems that C-41 film can be pushed better in this than when processed as a negative. I'm hoping that ECP-2 film can be somewhat useful in this process as well. The GAF slide film is a complete unknown. I've not processed any of it yet, but I have a ton of it varying from 50 ISO all the way up to 500 ISO, though unfortunately most of it is not in 35mm (a lot of 6x7 sheets, 4x5 sheets, double 8mm, and 127 and 126)

Also, for RA-4 reversal, you might be interested in a post I made in another thread. I've gotten decent results from making my own first developer for RA-4 reversal. See here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/reversal-ra-4-experiment-thread.54751/page-9#post-2215284

edit: My slides I developed in this process over a year ago still look the same way they did when developed, though I've not had them exposed to light or anything.

 

[feral_capitalist]

I'm surprised you got accurate colors at 70F for the first developer.

Be careful with Ektachrome Duplicating film. That stuff is not regular slide film stocks. I recently dev'ed expired 2011 velvia 100 using HC110 (1+15) for an hour at 105F and it overdeveloped so bad that the CD couldn't make the frames black due to all the overdeveloped silver taking it's place. The film looked like really bad b&w slides with NO color at all. Ektachrome Duplicating film for 4x5 is weird. Its super thick, the anti-halation layer doesn't come off in a pre-wash, it comes off in the 1st developer and you must agitate the crap out of it to remove it. Super long development time for it as well. I made the mistake of treating velvia like it. Lesson learned, Velvia 100 should be 1st dev'ed by HC110 (1+31) for around 15-20mins.

I've got more rolls to try later this week.

 

[feral_capitalist]

New test.... failed results. But there is more to learn!

Velvia 100, shot at 100 iso, FORGOT to add 1/2-1 stop for age, expired 2011 not frozen, crap..

1st dev: HC110(1+31,B) @102F for 12 mins, with 1min agitation
Fog: 7W 3000k LED 6 inches away for 1-1/2 min (full completion)
RA-4 Wasted CD: Added 5ml of household ammonia (thats NH4, soap, fragrance, everything) to 30ml of exhausted CD, judged on a homemade red cabbage universal pH indicator due to the RA-4 being ~10pH rather than 12... CD'ed for 12mins@102F with 1 min agitation
RA-4 BF: 10 mins@102F with 1min agitation
RA-4 STB: 5mins
Formalin Bath: 5 mins

Very low density, that's due to the fixer time not long enough due to the waste chemistry from lab printer, could help brighten the image if all the silver is cleared, I'll need to extend to 15-20mins. There is a faint negative image on the film when not projected. Blue cast on the shadows, yellowish highlights. I think the 1st dev time is fine, might extend to 15mins. The CD should have a bit more ammonia added to it (I really need to get 5M NaOH instead ). I'll add 10 ml ammonia to 30ml CD next time to get those blues down. Other than that the colors seem to be aligning, there's just this consistent blue filter over the images that needs addressing.

 

[billy howards]

i tried this a few weeks ago using the tail end of a bottle of old formulation of HC-110 (syrup!), with flexicolor for the c-41. i couldn't be happier with the results using ektachrome 100. then i tried it again with the new HC-110, and the film came out quite dark. repeated with new hc-110, but this time refreshed with new developer at 3:15 of the 6:30 process, thinking maybe the new hc-110 depletes sooner. still, dark negatives. is it possible that the reformulated hc-110 has eliminated the ingredients needed to make this a good E-6 FD?

thanks so much!

 

[bnxvs]

I believe this is because the HC-110 has a very low pH for such purposes. Try adding a little alkali (potassium hydroxide or trisodium phosphate).

 

[billy howards]

thanks for the reply! the TSP powder i have says "for household use, use at a 1:20 ratio with hot water"...would you recommend using the same ratio into hc-110 working solution, or significantly less?

 

[bnxvs]

No way. This is too much in my opinion. It would be correct to check the initial readings of pH and add a concentrated solution of TSP in small portions to pH ± 10.0
If you don’t have a pH meter, just try adding thimbleful of TSP to the developer solution and checking the blackening time for small pieces of the exposed film.

 

[billy howards]

so...i just finished developing and scanning some ektachrome with 5grams of TSP added to 300mls of hc-110. it did indeed yield less dark negatives, although still darker than the original formula hc-110. now, here's the curious thing...i found the MSDS sheets for the old & new HC-110 formulations, and the pH actually INCREASED from 9 to 9.9, so the newer stuff is more alkaline. i have a pH meter on the way, so i'll be able to know more specifically what i'm doing. wonder if a longer development time is all that's needed (currently at 6:30). or, more TSP, or, failing those options, a different b&w developer?

 

[Donald Qualls]

As has been discussed in other threads, the new HC-110 has other changes from the "syrup". In B&W processing, it apparently works very much the same, but "off label" uses might require some adjustment for the new formula. At least its easy to tell which version you have.

Maybe I should put my bottle of ca. 2005 syrup on the Classifieds -- or the auction site.

 

[grainyvision]

i tried this a few weeks ago using the tail end of a bottle of old formulation of HC-110 (syrup!), with flexicolor for the c-41. i couldn't be happier with the results using ektachrome 100. then i tried it again with the new HC-110, and the film came out quite dark. repeated with new hc-110, but this time refreshed with new developer at 3:15 of the 6:30 process, thinking maybe the new hc-110 depletes sooner. still, dark negatives. is it possible that the reformulated hc-110 has eliminated the ingredients needed to make this a good E-6 FD?

thanks so much!

I assume that the new HC-110 is formulated to contain less amine based solvents. Doesn't tend to matter too much for B/W films, but can make a big difference in a 7 layer color film where diffusion into the emulsion is an absolute key for success.

 

[billy howards]

interesting. do you think there's anything else i can add to the new hc-110 to help out? or perhaps change something in the process...longer development time?...a higher ratio of solution to water than 15:1? or, lastly, is there another b&w developer that you think would be a better starting point? also...belated thanks for starting this thread!

 

[grainyvision]

interesting. do you think there's anything else i can add to the new hc-110 to help out? or perhaps change something in the process...longer development time?...a higher ratio of solution to water than 15:1? or, lastly, is there another b&w developer that you think would be a better starting point? also...belated thanks for starting this thread!

Many people have had good experience (myself included in 1 trial run) using Dektol 1+1 instead of HC-110. I have no idea what I'd try to add to new HC-110 to get it to behave like the old one did. Likely only Kodak knows what specifically is missing. I know it takes a very high energy developer to get proper box speed results in this process though. You can get great slides from more "normal" developers, but typically at 1-2 stops below box speed. D-76 for example I know can give good results at 1 stop slower than box speed

 

[billy howards]

thanks for the replies everyone. tonight i did another roll of ektachrome, this time of 120. the pH of the hc-110 at dilution A was 9.78, and with 5 grams of TSP, the pH rose to 10.18. last night i was developing 35mm, so 5 grams went into 300ml of developer, and tonight 5 grams went into 500ml...so i was using less tonight, although i extended the development time from 6:30 to 9 mins, and seems like things are definitely going in the right direction. the images were far less dark. my reference between rolls is the word "kodak" on the film-strip. originally it was beige, then with the 2019 hc-110 at 6:30 it was almost dark brown. now it's resembling beige again. can anyone confirm what colour the word "kodak" should read on E-6 developed with E-6 chemistry? i'm betting it's clear or white. will also try some dektol tomorrow. thanks again everyone.

 

[bnxvs]

I don’t think it makes sense to evaluate the quality of development by the color of the inscriptions in the cross-process. The black and white developer E6 differs significantly from the HC-110 solution in a large amount of developing substances. A liter of developer in the E6 process includes 17 grams of hydroquinone and about 0.5 grams of phenidone (methylphenidone). But HC-110 at a dilution of 1:31 has only about 2 g of hydroquinone per liter.
By increasing pH, you partially compensate for the lack of developing substances, increasing the activity of the developer. But you will not get full compliance. In addition, the final color is also affected by other substances in the developer. For example, potassium iodide, which is responsible for the yellow-blue balance.
You could just make a good E6 1-th developer out of raw components - it’s not difficult.