How to (consistently) make positive E-6 transparencies with C-41 chemicals

[Donald Qualls]

Surely seems good enough to try with a fresh roll of Ektachrome...

 

[Caleb Hauge]

Surely seems good enough to try with a fresh roll of Ektachrome...

I've done E100 like this before. It worked great with Ilfosol 3, standard dilution, 110 F, 11 minutes IIRC. The only problem was that reds were a little weak, but that could have been down to my C41 color developer being beyond exhausted.

 

[real_liiva]

Just tried this with some kodak aerocolor. Rated it at EI 100, first developer adox atomal stock dillution at 39c for 12:30 agitating every 30 sec (seems like this may have been a bit too much first development). Got images that arent super dark like my first attempt at this process was (used 1:50 rodinal that time) but the colors and contrast are quite strange, as well as the unexposed parts of the film arent black but rather dark purplish magenta.

 

[lamerko]

Just tried this with some kodak aerocolor. Rated it at EI 100, first developer adox atomal stock dillution at 39c for 12:30 agitating every 30 sec (seems like this may have been a bit too much first development). Got images that arent super dark like my first attempt at this process was (used 1:50 rodinal that time) but the colors and contrast are quite strange, as well as the unexposed parts of the film arent black but rather dark purplish magenta.

Strange choice for a first developer. A-49 uses a derivative of CD-1 as a developing agent...

 

[real_liiva]

Strange choice for a first developer. A-49 uses a derivative of CD-1 as a developing agent...

Hmmm interesting. The exposed leader doesnt seem to show any signs of premature color development occuring though. If anything, my first attempt at this process with Rodinal seemed to have more signs of premature color development than this. (cyan leader, partial inversion in the deepest parts of shadows causing the shadows to sort of "glow").

 

[BHuij]

Gave this a shot yesterday with some 4x5 Ektachrome 100. Using HC-110A for the first developer and ECN-2 stuff for the rest (separate bleach and fix).

Pleasantly surprised at the results. I knew on paper that the CD-3 in ECN-2 was a better match for slide film than CD-4, but this honestly came out with no real noticeable color cast. The blue-ness, I think, is due to the film’s normal blue shadows, the time of morning I was shooting, and that I didn’t use my 81a because I wanted it cool. And I was largely taking a shot in the dark on development times.

 

[Osmdesat]

If someone is interested, I'm working on an alternative E-6 process using a positive BW developer as FD and RA-4 color developer as CD here.
I chose RA-4 developer for experiments, because the RA-4 color developer uses the same color developing agent (CD-3) as the E-6 one as it is intended to develop positive image as well (stronger than a negative developer.)
RA-4 kit is also cheaper than C-41 kit.
However, to be even cheaper, I got some chemicals and now I'm using home-mixed RA-4 developer according to Bonavolta and combination of separate bleach and fixer.
As FD should be used BW developer as strongest as possible. I chose Foma GD-L developer, which is contrasty line-art developer. But it is repordedly rather obscure developer, so maybe I will try some standard developer for BW prints. Question is, if it's necessary to tweak the FD with thiocyanate.
Ideal would be to tune the process, so that the user can just use ready-made products without further tweakings and modifications.
The process now kinda works for me (with Ektachrome), but must be tested and verified.

 

[psfred]

There are a lot of formula for E6 color developers out there using CD-3, probably best to use one of those since they are designed to be used for development to completion, not primary development to a contrast standard (that is done in the first developer in reversal film).

The correct formula for E6 first developer calls for hydroquinone sesquisulfate, which is a much softer working developer that plain hydroquinone, but unavailable. Fortunately, I discovered a patent for making it in the developer -- dissolve some sodium sulfate in warm water, add the hydroquinone, then add 30 mL of pharmacy 3% hydrogen peroxide and let it react for a few minutes. Not sure of the exact formula a the moment, but I can find it if anyone is interested.

Increasing the bromide and iodide amounts by four or five times will also greatly increase the DMAX of old slide film, which gets "pale" even if frozen.

 

[koraks]

Fortunately, I discovered a patent for making it in the developer -- dissolve some sodium sulfate in warm water, add the hydroquinone, then add 30 mL of pharmacy 3% hydrogen peroxide and let it react for a few minutes. Not sure of the exact formula a the moment, but I can find it if anyone is interested.

Yes please! I've never had an active interest in pursuing this myself, but the question of DIY E6 has kept popping up over the years and AFAIK this remains one of the bottlenecks today. It would be great if it could be resolved!

 

[Anon Ymous]

@psfred @koraks I seriously doubt that the process described in the patent produces any HQMS. If you mix some sodium sulfite with hydrogen peroxide, they will quickly react and form sodium sulfate. There's a process where hydroquinone reacts with peroxide, which gives p-benzoquinone, in the presence of iodide (as a catalyst). This in turn can be purified and reacted with sulfite, under the right conditions to give a HQMS salt. It's a rather involved process, which should be performed under a fume hood.

 

[psfred]

There is definitely a reaction as the solution heats up some, and I've had good results with it, even with ancient film. I have no way to determine whether it's actually the sesquisulfate or not, and to my mind it really doesn't matter.

The old PQ formulas work well, have been using them on and off for 40 years or so. Slightly more contrast that using official formulations but quite usable. I have not seen any noticeable color shift that cannot be corrected by adjusting color developer pH.

I should break down and buy some fresh E100 someday, all my current stock is freezer stored old film, and even freezer stored it has high background fog.

 

[philipp_c41]

Hi folks,

my first post here.

Since I regularly shoot color negatives but only occasionally shoot slide film, I was looking for an alternative to the expensive and not long lasting E6 chemistry.

Back then I was successful with the use of Cinestill D6 as a first developer.
I wrote a short post about it on Reddit. (I hope a link is allowed)



I have done this process many times and it has given me very good results.

Since Cinestill D6 does not last long and is too expensive for just 1 film, I was looking for an alternative.

I was all the more interested when I read through this thread.

I then ordered my first bottle of HC110 and made my first attempt with the specified success formula of 1:9 and 6:30min.


Unfortunately, the results were not as good as with the films developed with D6. It seems that not all layers were developed evenly. I can't exactly classify the results.
It looks a bit like expired film, although it is fresh Provia 100.

Now my question to the community.

Is it, as I suspected, insufficient 1st development?
Could it be due to the new HC110 formula? (CAT 105 8692)
Should I try again with the same parameters (1:9, 6:30min)?
If I change the parameters, should I increase the concentration or extend the development time?

Thanks for your help!


philipp

 

[koraks]

Welcome aboard @philipp_c41 !

wrote a short post about it on Reddit. (I hope a link is allowed)

Absolutely, thanks for sharing your interesting work!

Is it, as I suspected, insufficient 1st development?

Well, "insufficient" is perhaps simplifying it a bit too much. Let's call it "inappropriate", at least if you're after life-like colors. My guess is that the main problem is one of developer activity, which needs to be right on the mark to make all layers develop at the required rate. If you would treat this as 'insufficient' development and simply develop longer or at a higher temperature, you'll likely still run into severe color crossovers and aberrations.

A more promising route I believe would be to adjust the developer pH, so that the rate at which the developer penetrates the emulsion changes. Since you have a (severe) crossover problem in these slides, it's a bit of a guess which direction you need to adjust. Overall, the frames look too cyan, which suggests you'd have to adjust pH down a little. This may get you closer - but color problems will remain.

I don't think there's really a bulletproof way to replace a proper E6 first developer with something like HC110. There's too much going on about an E6 developer in terms of crossover behavior, toe-cutting and whatnot. Coaxing HC110 into working quite well would be analogous to just creating a new E6 developer from scratch.

If you're looking to cut costs while keeping somewhat acceptable color control, I'd be inclined to explore different routes, such as making the most out of a real E6 first developer through proper storage, saving film up and processing in batches so the developer doesn't sit around for too long between uses etc.

 

[halfaman]

I gave up E6 home processing many years ago. I have never been a slide shooter, and nowadays even less. So I just use a professional lab, it is expensive but not really for a couple of rolls per year.

 

[philipp_c41]

Hello Koraks,

thank you for your detailed answer.


My curiosity got the better of me at the weekend and I gave it another try.

I developed a partial strip of Provia 100. I chose the same 1:9 dilution again but increased the time to 9:30min.

The slides turned out much better in my opinion, they look perfect on the lightpad.

As already mentioned, I have the HC110 in the new formulation (CAT 105 8692).
I would like to know if the successful attempts documented here were also made with the new HC110.
For me, the development time of 6:30min was clearly too short.

Other good samples with 9:30 in HC110 1:9

 

[koraks]

Yes, this looks a whole lot better indeed! I assume the orange cast in the 'other good samples' is due to a light balance issue when photographing the images on the light pad. In those further two images it does seem like contrast may have gone through the roof looking at how the skies render and especially the white plastic-wrapped bales behind the tractor.

 

[philipp_c41]

Yes, this looks a whole lot better indeed! I assume the orange cast in the 'other good samples' is due to a light balance issue when photographing the images on the light pad. In those further two images it does seem like contrast may have gone through the roof looking at how the skies render and especially the white plastic-wrapped bales behind the tractor.

these are just smartphone snapshots, which are probably difficult to judge. when i have time, i'll make proper scans.

 

[philipp_c41]

these are just smartphone snapshots, which are probably difficult to judge. when i have time, i'll make proper scans.

And here are the scans, digitalized with my Sony A7.
I am very pleased with the results!

 

[koraks]

Those are very nice indeed, well done!

 

[jejes]

Hello, i would like to increase my FD contrast. I'm using real E6 chemicals (the film is not well kept maybe 30 years without freezing) but my slides are outdated and i can't get enough contrast. Should i extend FD from E6 Kit (from tetenal) or can i use the HC110 recipe and then apply CD (from the kit and BX).

Is the FD (from tetenal) that contains too the chemical fogging agent? Or is the CD?

I have too the Adox Scala kit for reversal BW.
Wich is the solution you find the best to increase contrast maybe around 50%.

Thank You

 

[koraks]

Is the FD (from tetenal) that contains too the chemical fogging agent?

The fogging agent will never be in the FD. If that were the case, you'd end up with entirely blank film at the end of the line.

Try extending FD time in your case, see if that helps.

 

[jejes]

The fogging agent will never be in the FD. If that were the case, you'd end up with entirely blank film at the end of the line.

Try extending FD time in your case, see if that helps.

I have extended FD to 12 min and no works, same density. No contrast. What can i do ? I would like to use this slides and don't contrast in photoshop after scanning.

 

[koraks]

I'm not sure if there's all that much you can do to salvage 30-year old slide film.
What result do you get? Please show a sample. If it's a matter of high fog, you may achieve something by adding a silver solvent (some thiosulfate) to the first developer.

Colors will be off regardless of what you'll try, of course.

 

[Osmdesat]

And here are the scans, digitalized with my Sony A7.
I am very pleased with the results!

The colors pop nicely! Do you observe some color difference between E-6 color developer and C-41 one? C-41 contains different color agent (CD-4) which reportedly gives more saturated colors.

The fogging agent will never be in the FD. If that were the case, you'd end up with entirely blank film at the end of the line.
Try extending FD time in your case, see if that helps.

Perhaps he meant potassium thiocyanate (rhodanide), which is added to the FDs to boost up shadows and lights. This chemical really fogs the emulsion. I don't know exact reaction, but probably it directly builds up silver from silver halides in both exposed (less) and unexposed areas (more), which lifts up and flattens the resulting curve.

I am quite surprised that @philipp_c41 has so good curves with unmodified HC110. Maybe HC110 contains silver solvents, which in such high concentration has similar effect like rhodanide?

 

[BHuij]

The colors pop nicely! Do you observe some color difference between E-6 color developer and C-41 one? C-41 contains different color agent (CD-4) which reportedly gives more saturated colors.


Perhaps he meant potassium thiocyanate (rhodanide), which is added to the FDs to boost up shadows and lights. This chemical really fogs the emulsion. I don't know exact reaction, but probably it directly builds up silver from silver halides in both exposed (less) and unexposed areas (more), which lifts up and flattens the resulting curve.

I am quite surprised that @philipp_c41 has so good curves with unmodified HC110. Maybe HC110 contains silver solvents, which in such high concentration has similar effect like rhodanide?

HC-110 is known to be a solvent developer, right?

I am very happy with the results I'm getting with fresh E100 using HC-110 as my first developer and then ECN-2 color dev/bleach/fix after light fogging. Honestly I can't really tell it apart from rolls/sheets I've done in the past with the FPP's E6 kits.