How long does paper developer working solution last?

[dcy]

Always consider MDS's (as apparently they are now known) in context.

Yeah. In truth, I don't follow every recommendation in the MSDS, for the reasons you give. It's perfectly fine to look at the MSDS and make a personal judgement call. I usually wear gloves, I don't always wear gloves, and I don't wear eye protection even though the MSDS says I should. I am also more careful with concentrate than the diluted mix.

 

[chuckroast]

I doubt that you'd be willing to drink it or wash your face with it. More importantly, I do not think that blanket statements like "fixer is not hazardous" are helpful --- at least Matt's version ("I wouldn't even call it hazardous") conveys that this is his personal judgement call, as is his comparison to household products.

Can we agree that being "properly informed" would include reading the MSDS? Below I have copied a portion of the MSDS of one commercial fixer. You are of course free to ignore what it says, but please don't ding me for using the terminology or precautions that are more or less in line with the MSDS.

You would find much the same level of warning for common household cleaning products. Here is the one for Clorox bleach:

https://www.thecloroxcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/cloroxregular-bleach12015-06-12.pdf

Do we avoid coming into contact with Clorox or abandon its use entirely? Of course not. We just use it carefully.

It is the dose that makes the poison, it's the application that creates the danger. (Unless you're dealing with incredibly dangerous substances like methylmercury or cyanide gas, in which case you jolly well better have the right lab equipment, respirators, and isolation and containment capabilities.)

If you maintain good lab practices, work clean, rinse immediately upon contact, things like fixer shouldn't be a huge concern. I do think eye protection is always a good idea.

The greater concern I have in the darkroom is not mixing things together accidentally that will kill me. For example I do not keep bleach and ammonia near each other. I don't let potassium ferricyanide anywhere near a strong acid. Both of these examples, if mixed, can kill you from the resulting gasses.

 

[Don_ih]

Yes, yes, cite the msds.

From the msds for water:

More relevant, the from the msds of ammonium thiosulfate:

Strange that there's no real toxicological data on the primary component of rapid fixer.

 

[Bill Burk]

Use tongs or don’t. Use gloves or don’t.

I have some lovely homemade wooden tongs that have dented many prints. I rarely use them but keep them on display as a fond reminder.

Gloves are the way to go for me. I get XL because they’re easy to put on and take off. Made four prints last night and went through seven gloves. (Most of the time used just one glove).

 

[Paul Howell]

Air Force tech orders in the 70s called for gloves, the old fashion rubber gloves when mixing chemistry use of tongs when printing. The only time I used my hands in a tray for developer, stop bath, and fix was when we would batch process up to a 100 prints at a time, same print. I would process 10 to 15 prints at time, shuffling the prints in the soups from tray to next when a hard wash up before the next batch. The rubber gloves of the day were just too thick to be efficient. I used gloves when I mixed up MCM 100 as it contains Catechol and p-Phenylenediamine. With Clayton film and paper developer I don't think gloves are all that necessary. When I taught as the local community college I made sure that we had gloves on hand, in a class of 15 there was one who was sensitive.

 

[Bill Burk]

Air Force tech orders in the 70s called for gloves, the old fashion rubber gloves when mixing chemistry use of tongs when printing. The only time I used my hands in a tray for developer, stop bath, and fix was when we would batch process up to a 100 prints at a time, same print. I would process 10 to 15 prints at time, shuffling the prints in the soups from tray to next when a hard wash up before the next batch

As soon as I get into volume, I make mistakes.

This is when after a dozen prints my fixer is exhausted my developer stinks and my stop bath is purple.

Indicator stop bath is cheap and it’s so satisfying to replace it mid-session.

But I make too many fixer mistakes. I lately have been focusing my attention on two-bath fix where the first tray goes to discard and the second tray gies to jug. But only for a couple weeks. After that I will mix fresh

 

[pentaxuser]

It's ideal if you are insensitive to the likes of metol and will never get dermatitis but how can anyone know in advance if they are sensitive or insensitive without taking the risk that they might be? I presume that if you have guessed wrongly and do use your bare hands then notice the beginnings of a problem so stop using bare hands immediately then the dermatitis clears up completely and no long term harm done?

If that is the case then it might be a reasonable course of action to try bare hands until a problem arises

pentaxuser

 

[snusmumriken]

It's ideal if you are insensitive to the likes of metol and will never get dermatitis but how can anyone know in advance if they are sensitive or insensitive without taking the risk that they might be? I presume that if you have guessed wrongly and do use your bare hands then notice the beginnings of a problem so stop using bare hands immediately then the dermatitis clears up completely and no long term harm done?

If that is the case then it might be a reasonable course of action to try bare hands until a problem arises

pentaxuser

There was a Photrio thread about safety of metol a while back - link.

It's clear that you can develop contact dermatitis from metol at any time, even when for years you have shown no sensitivity. So the course of action you suggest is not advisable. Avoiding contact is the wisest route, and those who can't keep their hands out of the trays would be well advised to wear gloves.

 

[tezzasmall]

Looking again at the prints (below), they don't really look like bubbles, but more like liquid drops of non-development.

View attachment 401710

View attachment 401713

Those larger blemishes: looks to me like you’ve splashed stop bath or something onto the print before development. Go gently with the rocking!

I would agree with snusmumriken's reply, as it happens to me occasionally and I still don't quite know how it happens. I believe some how, most likely fixer, gets onto the paper before it is put into the developer and this stops, usually small, areas from developing.

Like most, I am very careful in my printing area, but it is a bit small, so things are very close to each other. One can only accept it to happen every now and then and do a reprint as soon as noticed. I use a Nova slot processor by the way, so chemicals are very close to each other in the slots, so I can only think that some fixer splashes across the small distance and lands around the developer slot. I think maybe I need to wipe the top surfaces of the slots on a regular basis in a printing session, to see if this helps.

If I could say exactly when the contamination happens, I would say, but it is still a mystery to me, with the above assumption only being an educated guess...

Terry S

 

[dcy]

You would find much the same level of warning for common household cleaning products. Here is the one for Clorox bleach:

Yes.

Do we avoid coming into contact with Clorox or abandon its use entirely? Of course not. We just use it carefully.

Yeah.

I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously I have fixer in my house, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say by abandoning it entirely. We are talking about gloves. Gloves are used for cleaning too. I took my nitrile gloves from the kitchen. I didn't buy them for photography, I had them next to the bleach in the kitchen.

 

[Paul Howell]

As soon as I get into volume, I make mistakes.

This is when after a dozen prints my fixer is exhausted my developer stinks and my stop bath is purple.

Indicator stop bath is cheap and it’s so satisfying to replace it mid-session.

But I make too many fixer mistakes. I lately have been focusing my attention on two-bath fix where the first tray goes to discard and the second tray gies to jug. But only for a couple weeks. After that I will mix fresh

I don't have room for two trays, I use hypo check, as soon as I see a slight clouding I dump and remix.

 

[dcy]

From the msds for water:

I am genuinely curious as to where you find an MSDS for water.

More relevant, the from the msds of ammonium thiosulfate:
...
Strange that there's no real toxicological data on the primary component of rapid fixer.

That is indeed fascinating. I will not pretend to be a chemist, but seeing the note about that ingredient in fixer does not delete the information in the MSDS for the fixer.

You are free to take whichever precautions you deem appropriate for yourself and your home. Risk tolerance vs aversion is a very personal thing. But I would be grateful if you did not suggest, as you might have done in post #66, that I am uninformed about the safety of the chemicals I use. I take pride in reading the MSDS of every photographic chemical in my home, as well as various other far more dangerous products that I also possess, and I make an honest effort to have at least a basic understanding the properties of the ingredients. I do not shy away from having dangerous products in my home, but I do treat them with respect. Beyond nitrile gloves, I do have various forms of eye protection, as well as P95 respirators with cartridges rated to protect against VOCs. I do not use them for photography, but other products that I handle do require them.

Without any sarcasm, I am honestly happy that you have made a risk assessment and taken whatever measures match your tolerance for risk. I just want you to know that I am neither uninformed, nor cavalier about handling dangerous chemicals at home. Photographic fixer is dangerous, as are household bleach, gasoline, propane tanks, and many spray paints, for example. I have a wide range of PPEs available. I read the MSDS and look up the properties of the products I use, and yes, my selections do lean slightly on the side of caution.

 

[Craig]

and yes, my selections do lean slightly on the side of caution.

That's the smart and prudent approach to take I believe. You never know what might seem innocuous at the time, but will come back and bite you 20 years later.

 

[MattKing]

But I would be grateful if you did not suggest, as you might have done in post #66, that I am uninformed about the safety of the chemicals I use.

There is a subset of information surrounding this issue that you are less informed about - or at least less experienced with: it is how dealing with the information in an MDS is affected by the actual use of what is in the bottles and bags of the stuff you buy.
Things like dilution and how deep tank vs. roller transport vs shallow trays used with individual prints and 8 hour a day, and 5 days a week exposure compares with a few hours every once in a while in a converted bathroom.
The MDS's are designed to warn about the risks associated with extensive use and exposure. If you have experience with both that situation, and with a situation closer to what you are currently dealing with, as many of us have, that experience greatly informs your decision about risk aversion.

 

[Don_ih]

But I would be grateful if you did not suggest, as you might have done in post #66, that I am uninformed about the safety of the chemicals I use.

No, I assume you're informed about the chemicals you use. I was stating that caution doesn't replace information.

So, how about this for information. The msds you cite is for Kodak rapid fixer. I use a different rapid fixer - one that uses different ingredients (same main ingredient).

Here's the table from the Kodak msds:

The hazardous materials are vinegar, lye, borax, and disodium disulphite - all in much lower quantities than the ammonium thiosulfate (which we know they haven't bothered to test). What happens when you mix vinegar with borax and lye?

Anyway, I don't use vinegar or lye in my fixer. It isn't described by this msds.

Furthermore, you can make a fixer from just sodium thiosulfate in water. Not toxic. Not hazardous.

 

[dcy]

There is a subset of information surrounding this issue that you are less informed about - or at least less experienced with: it is how dealing with the information in an MDS is affected by the actual use of what is in the bottles and bags of the stuff you buy.

Certainly inexperienced. But there are no shortcuts for that, right? Also, experience can be a double-edged sword --- "we did it this way in the 70's and we all turned out fine". --- My point is that I am not cavalier about chemicals and I make an honest effort to be informed within the extent of my ability. Aside from inexperience, I also lack a degree in chemistry or medicine. I would argue that, if anything, lack of experience should be a reason to err on the side of caution.

I am reminded of a recent post I saw on Reddit. It was about a man who refused to wear gloves to handle some of the nastier household chemicals. His reason? "Real men don't wear gloves". Then he spent the rest of the week complaining that his hands were dry and itchy.

 

[dcy]

The msds you cite is for Kodak rapid fixer. I use a different rapid fixer - one that uses different ingredients (same main ingredient).

It isn't, actually. But it has the same ingredients.

View attachment 401903
The hazardous materials are vinegar, lye, borax, and disodium disulphite - all in much lower quantities than the ammonium thiosulfate (which we know they haven't bothered to test).

Yeah.

What happens when you mix vinegar with borax and lye?

More seriously. I don't think it works that way. The MSDS for sodium chloride doesn't claim that it has the combined harms of sodium and chlorine. I am not 100% familiar with the rules and regulations regarding the MSDS, but if the combination of the products made the result harmless, I would expect the MSDS to say so, as it does in the example I linked to.

Furthermore, you can make a fixer from just sodium thiosulfate in water. Not toxic. Not hazardous.

In principle I'd love to make fixer at home --- I make everything else at home. But sodium thiosulfate is the slow fixer.

 

[Paul Howell]

Although the Air Force did not use particularly toxic chemistry in the Photo Lab, all the labs had an eye wash station. When mixing liquid chem like Kodak Rapid Fix we were taught to fill the container (usually a 5 gallon) with the required amount of water then add the stock chemistry so if there was any splashing it was the was water not the concentrate. We also had aprons and goggles, once out of the tech school most of us just used gloves unless the IG was on base.

 

[Don_ih]

The MSDS for sodium chloride doesn't claim that it has the combined harms of sodium and chlorine.

It's a compound. The molecules are bonded to make something that is neither sodium nor chloride.

 

[Bill Burk]

I found an msds for water, it included the usual information

• Melting point/freezing pointMelting point/range: 0 °C
• Initial boiling point and boiling range100 °C
• Relative density1,000 g/mL at 25 °C

Water - Safety Data Sheet

 

[dcy]

I found an msds for water, it included the usual information

• Melting point/freezing pointMelting point/range: 0 °C
• Initial boiling point and boiling range100 °C
• Relative density1,000 g/mL at 25 °C

Water - Safety Data Sheet

It has a CAS number and everything! CAS 7732-18-5. There's a "Firefighting measures" section.

 

[Peter Schrager]

I print for exhibition quality..I'm old school so I learned from Fred Picker
I do up to 12 prints in the developer; then add more of the same ratio if still printing
same goes for stop bath
fixer up to 24 prints in the bath
I make all my own solutions; i.e Ansco D55 warm tone developer which has never failed me
stop 3oz of 28% glacial in 64 oz h2o
fix is 1lb of thiosulfate in 64 oz water
make your own and save $$; save the planet by not shipping water!

 

[MurrayMinchin]

I missed this thread on the first go around.

Back when I was making enlargements (now contact printing argyrotypes) I was using pin registered sharp and unsharp masking techniques which made it impossible to finish a print in one printing session. Most prints took multiple days to make a sequence of masks which worked, so I came up with a developer and methods to pick up *exactly* where I left off...days, or even weeks later...with the same batch of developer working solution.

EDIT: Also used a compensating metronome timer for consistent enlargement exposures.

Wrote about it here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/12-15-developer.123/

 

[snusmumriken]

I missed this thread on the first go around.

Back when I was making enlargements (now contact printing argyrotypes) I was using pin registered sharp and unsharp masking techniques which made it impossible to finish a print in one printing session. Most prints took multiple days to make a sequence of masks which worked, so I came up with a developer and methods to pick up *exactly* where I left off...days, or even weeks later...with the same batch of developer working solution.

EDIT: Also used a compensating metronome timer for consistent enlargement exposures.

Wrote about it here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/12-15-developer.123/

I’m interested in the idea that boxed wine comes in between sessions. That sounds very well organised.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

I’m interested in the idea that boxed wine comes in between sessions. That sounds very well organised.

They have changed them now, I think. They used to be mylar with an easily removed spigot...perfect for air & light tight storage.

Been booze-less for 16 years, so have no idea if they're still available.