How long does paper developer working solution last?

[pentaxuser]

Reading koraks' description, it sounds a bit difficult. I don't feel I have a good sense of where the midtones are; especially under a safe light where it's just really hard to see what's going on.

I like you am not very good at discerning matters under a safelight and certainly not fine nuances but are you not suppose to check such things in the roomlight or daylight after you print and isn't it that examination that tells you if the developer ís becoming exhausted It's a form of before and after test similar to the one you can use by comparing each print to the initial print made with fresh developer. Once the blacks become less black then you know the developer is on its way out and it is your decision as to how big a range of "best to worst" prints you are happy with before dumping the developer?

pentaxuser

 

[Don_ih]

wearing nitrile gloves or similar PPE is always good practice when handling caustic chemicals.

It is good practice. No paper developers are caustic, though. Alkaline, yes. So is ramen. So is baking soda.

The main problematic chemical is metol. You can develop an intolerance to it from exposure, which will cause dermatitis.

I use tongs - one for every step - and leave the prints in a tray of water until I'm finished the session, then wash them all.

 

[snusmumriken]

I am going to assume that "you" in that sentence is the "generic you" and doesn't refer to me specifically.

Of course.

I have never seen a YT video where people intentionally dipped their bare hands into caustic chemicals.

Believe me, but see note below about ‘caustic’.

I do not follow any YT channel that I think a typical viewer would consider an "influencer", unless you adopt a definition where any and all YT channels are influencers.

Not quite, but I do mean the kind of people who offer advice gratuitously for no obvious reason other than to get “likes” or income. Here on Photrio I believe the main reason people offer advice is out of kindness, because they’ve already learned the hard way.

PPE is always good practice when handling caustic chemicals

Once compounded, home photography chemicals aren’t really caustic (or corrosive), especially at working strength. The main issues to think about are dermatitis, and contamination of your materials and darkroom.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

I use tongs - one for every step - and leave the prints in a tray of water until I'm finished the session, then wash them all.

Same here.

The only time I put gloves on are when bleaching and selenium toning, even if I still use tongs to get the prints in and out of solution.

 

[GregY]

Same here.

The only time I put gloves on are when bleaching and selenium toning, even if I still use tongs to get the prints in and out of solution.

Same here!

 

[GregY]

Is Liquidol the developer that the late P.E. had a hand in devising, if so I thought that was by far the longest lasting one It has been a while since I saw it mentioned but in a variation of this thread I had thought that longevity of several days at least was mentioned?

pentaxuser

I never found Liquidol to have any particularly special characteristics. I used to travel quite often in Montana and would stop by the Formulary. When Liquidol came out, Bud gave me a bottle, but I didn't find the results exceptional. My darkroom sessions can be 4-5 hours long. I far preferred they PF (Ansco) 130 and the BW 65 (which came in 2x1 gallon jugs).

 

[Craig]

I use tongs - one for every step - and leave the prints in a tray of water until I'm finished the session, then wash them all.

If you use RC paper you want to minimize the wet time, extended soaking isn't recommended by Ilford. FB of course is a different matter.

 

[dcy]

Well, to state the obvious, "similar" is not "the same".

To state the obvious, if I thought "similar" = "the same", I would not have asked about the difference

Speaking off...

Don't forget that, apart tone, the developer is another level of contrast control of your black and white print (i.e., it doesn't end with the contrast filters). D-72 at a 1:1 dilution gives me a bit more contrast than Ansco 130 at the same dilution, and I prefer the depth of the blacks with Ansco 130. I think the glycin in Ansco 130 has something to do with that, but I'm not sure.

Does Ansco 130 give you a higher Dmax than D-72? I am interested in ways to increase Dmax in my prints, aside from just buying better paper.

Of course, this all also depends on the paper. Fomabrom Variant 112 looks absolutely glorious in Ansco 130, to a point where it doesn't look like a matt surface. I have to work a bit harder under the enlarger to find the right levels of contrast to get Ilford's MGFB paper, glossy and matt, to sing as well in Ansco 130.

That is really interesting.

 

[dcy]

It is good practice. No paper developers are caustic, though. Alkaline, yes. So is ramen. So is baking soda.

I was more concerned about the fixer. Also, instead of saying "caustic", I think I should've said "hazardous".

I use tongs - one for every step - and leave the prints in a tray of water until I'm finished the session, then wash them all.

For RC papers Ilford recommends against prolonged washes (longer than 15 min). Water can get into the actual paper through the edges.

 

[dcy]

Not quite, but I do mean the kind of people who offer advice gratuitously for no obvious reason other than to get “likes” or income.

Technically, the Ilford YT channel (where some of my info comes from) exists for the sole purpose of generating income for Harman.

Still, think "I know what you mean". One has to make a judgement call as to whether the influence of money will result in dangerous advice. Aside from the Ilford YT channel, I also like to watch videos from "Pictorial Planet" by John Finch (who doesn't wear gloves!) and "The Naked Photographer" by Gregory Davis. But John sells a book, and Greg sells aprons and t-shirts. So...

Once compounded, home photography chemicals aren’t really caustic (or corrosive), especially at working strength. The main issues to think about are dermatitis, and contamination of your materials and darkroom.

I regret saying "caustic". Perhaps I should have used a broader term like "hazardous". I was thinking more about the fixer.

 

[Disconnekt]

It does make a difference, warm tone, cold tone, neutral tone. I like Carson Graves, but paper has changed to some degree over the past 32 years. I find that most RC paper needs less time than FB, the emulsion on RC is thinner than on FB, I guess, well Multitone which is a bargain grade paper. I use Multitone for work prints, and with most developers 1 minute seems to work fine, FB different story, 2 to 3 minutes depending on the brand and type. Currently I have Foma FB VC and graded 2 and 3, with Dektol 1:2 2 minutes seems to be right. I use a step wedge with each new box as there might be changes from on run to another. I will retest when I mix up a batch of Clayton. Many say that Amotol developers such as Westons give rich blacks and hold mid tones better than standard developers, some report that they leave prints in the developer for as long as 5 minutes. Ansal Adams used Dektal sometime mixed with Selectal Soft. ILford seems to be the most popular paper, I dont use it much, times for ILford might be differnt from Foma. If one developer was as good as the next then we would all be using Dektol.

Photographers Formulary has stock of liquidol.

Good, once I've use the Clayton will reorder Liquidol.

Liquidol's been discontinued, seems like they cant get ingredients for it to make it, so whatever's out there is pretty much it for now.

Liquidol availability

Liquidol seems to be out of stock everywhere (including the Formulary), and has been for a while. I’ve been printing with Ilford MG instead, and the results are fine, but I’m disappointed in the short tray life. I know there are various alternatives, of course, but I’ve gotten used to Liquidol...

www.photrio.com

 

[Paul Howell]

Liquidol's been discontinued, seems like they cant get ingredients for it to make it, so whatever's out there is pretty much it for now.

Liquidol availability

Liquidol seems to be out of stock everywhere (including the Formulary), and has been for a while. I’ve been printing with Ilford MG instead, and the results are fine, but I’m disappointed in the short tray life. I know there are various alternatives, of course, but I’ve gotten used to Liquidol...

www.photrio.com

Yeah, when it was posted as back in stock I took it at face value, just checked, no longer listed at all. For now I guess I will use Clayton, or dig deep in budget for Edwal, really deep for $75.00 a quart.

 

[Paul Howell]

I usually leave my Dektol 1+2 paper developer in an open tray over night when using it on two consecutive days.
There is a small loss of activity on the second day and this shows up as tiny reduction in the blacks and a slightly longer development time. But there is a work-around.

I routinely test strip every negative before printing it full size and the test strip shows me how to compensate for the change in developer activity.
A print that might need 8 seconds of enlarger exposure to develop maximum black on day one might need 9 seconds on day two to allow for the weaker developer. The test strip reveals this.
A print that looks good on contrast grade 2 on day one might ask for grade 2 1/2 on day two. The test strip reveals this.
A print that develops to completion in two minutes on day one might need three minutes on day two. The test strip reveals this.

Are the prints made on day one and day two identical? Probably not going by the second decimal place reading of a reflection densitometer but to the eye I reckon the prints look fine even next to each other.

While in the Air Force before the big change to mostly color we had floating lids. When not in use we kept the lids on no oxidation, for most part we used Detkto or GAF version and could keep a fresh batch of developer in the tray over a weekend. We had 16X20 SS trays.

 

[Don_ih]

For RC papers Ilford recommends against prolonged washes (longer than 15 min).

extended soaking isn't recommended by Ilford

While I appreciate recommendations, I have left thousands of rc prints in water for a few hours and had nothing significant happen.

 

[MattKing]

I wouldn't even call fixer "hazardous", unless you call a whole bunch of things found around the typical household or garden "hazardous".
The biggest hazard you will encounter with fixer - unless you drink it - is that if any of it gets on your hands/gloves and then gets transferred to your prints you will either end up with the sort of marks you have already encountered.
That and any transfer to a finished print might eventually end with discolouration.
And as for worrying about getting your hands into water, the only concern is that not yet dried hands can result in damage to not yet developed prints, so diligent hand drying is the solution.

 

[Don_ih]

There's nothing wrong with choosing to wear gloves. But that choice doesn't change the character of the materials you're using. Developer is not caustic. Fixer is not hazardous. Selenium toner is poisonous. Ferricyanide bleach is not. Bi (or di) chromate is poisonous.

Caution does not take the place of being properly informed.

 

[GregY]

I wouldn't even call fixer "hazardous", unless you call a whole bunch of things found around the typical household or garden "hazardous".
The biggest hazard you will encounter with fixer - unless you drink it - is that if any of it gets on your hands/gloves and then gets transferred to your prints you will either end up with the sort of marks you have already encountered.
That and any transfer to a finished print might eventually end with discolouration.
And as for worrying about getting your hands into water, the only concern is that not yet dried hands can result in damage to not yet developed prints, so diligent hand drying is the solution.

Good points Matt. I use nitrile gloves when selenium toning only (or mixing PMK). I keep a container of water handy when printing so I can rinse and dry my hands. I don't want to contaminate boxes of expensive enlarging paper, nor go through dozens of pairs of gloves.

 

[dcy]

I wouldn't even call fixer "hazardous", unless you call a whole bunch of things found around the typical household or garden "hazardous".

Well, the standard here is "should you wear gloves?". I'm sure you've seen people wearing gloves when handling certain household cleaning products.

Both fixers and household bleach, for example, can cause skin and eye irritation, and can even be dangerous if used carelessly.

 

[chuckroast]

I wouldn't even call fixer "hazardous", unless you call a whole bunch of things found around the typical household or garden "hazardous".
The biggest hazard you will encounter with fixer - unless you drink it - is that if any of it gets on your hands/gloves and then gets transferred to your prints you will either end up with the sort of marks you have already encountered.
That and any transfer to a finished print might eventually end with discolouration.
And as for worrying about getting your hands into water, the only concern is that not yet dried hands can result in damage to not yet developed prints, so diligent hand drying is the solution.

I work with bare hands and tongs when print making. Occasionally, especially with larger prints, I have to - gasp! - touch developer, stop, fixer, or toner when moving a wet print around. I do so very surgically and immediately rinse my hands thereafter. I have no known ill effects from this.

I do glove up when handling pyro in open tanks.

 

[GregY]

I work with bare hands and tongs when print making. Occasionally, especially with larger prints, I have to - gasp! - touch developer, stop, fixer, or toner when moving a wet print around. I do so very surgically and immediately rinse my hands thereafter. I have no known ill effects from this.

I do glove up when handling pyro in open tanks.

Same here. Moving 16x20" & 20x24" prints it's pretty easy to kink the paper using tongs. I often lift by 2 corners and then rinse my hands.

 

[MattKing]

Well, the standard here is "should you wear gloves?". I'm sure you've seen people wearing gloves when handling certain household cleaning products.

Both fixers and household bleach, for example, can cause skin and eye irritation, and can even be dangerous if used carelessly.

I worked with tongs and without gloves for the first ~40 years I did this.
And my fingers did sometimes get into the trays.
I never had any issues. And I know lots of people who had similar experience.
But I recommend gloves now, because over the years I have encountered a small number of people who developed a sensitivity to the chemicals, and I try to help others avoid that.
It is possible and in fact easy, with good habits and while exercising reasonable care, to safely work without gloves. But as commonly available gloves are now much easier to use and much less expensive than they once were, I recommend them instead.

 

[dcy]

Fixer is not hazardous. ... Caution does not take the place of being properly informed.

I doubt that you'd be willing to drink it or wash your face with it. More importantly, I do not think that blanket statements like "fixer is not hazardous" are helpful --- at least Matt's version ("I wouldn't even call it hazardous") conveys that this is his personal judgement call, as is his comparison to household products.

Can we agree that being "properly informed" would include reading the MSDS? Below I have copied a portion of the MSDS of one commercial fixer. You are of course free to ignore what it says, but please don't ding me for using the terminology or precautions that are more or less in line with the MSDS.

 

[GregY]

Well, to state the obvious, "similar" is not "the same".

Don't forget that, apart tone, the developer is another level of contrast control of your black and white print (i.e., it doesn't end with the contrast filters). D-72 at a 1:1 dilution gives me a bit more contrast than Ansco 130 at the same dilution, and I prefer the depth of the blacks with Ansco 130. I think the glycin in Ansco 130 has something to do with that, but I'm not sure.

I haven't tried D-72 at a 1:3 or 1:4 dilution, so I can't say if it would get me closer to Ansco 130.

Of course, this all also depends on the paper. Fomabrom Variant 112 looks absolutely glorious in Ansco 130, to a point where it doesn't look like a matt surface. I have to work a bit harder under the enlarger to find the right levels of contrast to get Ilford's MGFB paper, glossy and matt, to sing as well in Ansco 130.

The difference is even more striking when using warmtone papers.

IME Ilford warmtone FB is the exception (among the Ilford papers). I consider it in a class by itself (from Ilford). Having lost Forte, I settled on Foma's superb papers.....but even they are harder to get these days.