Home made D76 with raw chemistry?

[BradS]

I was taught to boil the tap water for a few minutes, let it cool to 125F (~50C) and then to add the Metol. Only recently did I read the "pinch of sulfite" advice. I've done it both with and without the pinch of sulfite...doesn't seem to have any significant photographic effect either way. I did not compare shelf life though.

 

[Ian Grant]

The boil tap water advice is in the "Mallinckrtopt Chemical Works - Chemistry of Photography" book that a very kind APUG member sent me a few weeks ago. It's also in Agfa (and other) books very early 1900's.

It does work, how well I've not tested, but it makes big difference when water is very hard. If I run a bath just heating the waster leaves a calcium precipitate here where I live in Turkey.

Ian

 

[BradS]

The boil tap water advice is in the "Mallinckrtopt Chemical Works - Chemistry of Photography" book that a very kind APUG member sent me a few weeks ago. It's also in Agfa (and other) books very early 1900's.

It does work, how well I've not tested, but it makes big difference when water is very hard. If I run a bath just heating the waster leaves a calcium precipitate here where I live in Turkey.

Ian

Here in the S.F Bay Area, I can boil a few liters of tap water for two minutes and filter off considerable solids with a coffee filter lined funnel. Someday, I'd like to try boiling away all the water to see just how much dissolved solids we have in the tap water. Need to find a pan at a garage sale or something....

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Here in the S.F Bay Area, ... Someday, I'd like to try boiling away all the water to see just how much dissolved solids we have in the tap water.

Just email your local water bureau and they will send you a copy of their water analysis report. It will tell you how much dissolved and suspended solids are in your water supply as well as a bunch of other things.

 

[gainer]

Let me appeal to the common sense one more time.

When a procedure is supposed to counter the effect of some pre-oxidation of Metol, should we test it on fresh Metol, or should we find some old, partially oxidized Metol and use it each of the several proposed ways to see which works best with the oxidized Metol? One could leave enough Metol to make a couple of liters of D-76 open to the air for several days in order to do this test. You will have to do it for yourself, because no one would believe Gadget Gainer. Besides, you always just pitch the Metol if it looks bad, don't you?

As G. K. Chesterton said: "It appears we have passed from the age of common sense to the age of uncomon nonsense."

I await with baited breath the responses. If you think I misspelled "bated", you're wrong.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Is the pinch of sulfite supposed to counter "preoxidized" metol? I though it was to prevent the oxidation in the first place.

By the way, G.K. Chesterson aside, I content that there has never been an age of common sense. The world merrily continues from one age of uncommon nonsense to the next.

You may call me a cynic.

 

[BradS]

Just email your local water bureau and they will send you a copy of their water analysis report. It will tell you how much dissolved and suspended solids are in your water supply as well as a bunch of other things.

ah...but what fun would that be? It'd be like going straight to the answers printed in the back of the book and not even trying the problem.

No, I must try it myself and then look at their data...and ask new questions.

 

[dancqu]

One Batch At A Time

Let me appeal to the common sense one more time.
When a procedure is supposed to counter the effect of some
pre-oxidation of Metol, should we test it on fresh Metol, or should
we find some old, partially oxidized Metol and use it ...

First perhaps an age testing of the metol using some standardized
thoroughly thought through procedures. No mixing batches. Dan

 

[gainer]

Is the pinch of sulfite supposed to counter "preoxidized" metol? I though it was to prevent the oxidation in the first place.

By the way, G.K. Chesterson aside, I content that there has never been an age of common sense. The world merrily continues from one age of uncommon nonsense to the next.

You may call me a cynic.

There was IIRC a period at least of literature that was called "The Age of Common Sense" whether it really was or not, and G.K. arrived near the end of it.

I don't think that the Metol was quite so pure in the time of Hardy & Perrin. Anyway, wouldn't it be nice to be able to use old Metol? I see requests from APUGers who have come across some of it at yard or estate sales, asking advice as to whether or not to use it. All it would cost is a change in the order of mixing.
You could search your literature to see if what I read in Mees & James about the different ways sulfite and ascorbate treat oxidized Metol still holds.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Hey, you forgot to call me a cynic! :^)

 

[gainer]

Hey, you forgot to call me a cynic! :^)

You already did!

 

[kiemchacsu]

Hi Brad,
I have followed that discussion, and I was under the impression that this "Kodak magic" just served to prevent the cross contamination of the materials during storage and transport. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Hans

up this topic again:
my question is:
1/ is there any solution to prevent cross contamination of the materials during storage?
2/ if no, would it be still good to used that mixed raw materials? i saw some grey and brown color stuffs in the mixed homemade d-76 powder.
thank a lot.

 

[Don_ih]

is there any solution to prevent cross contamination of the materials during storage?

There should be no risk of cross-contamination. All your chemicals should be separate until you add them in order to water for mixing. There is no advantage to mixing together the powders before adding to water. Dry, in closed containers, all those chemicals last for a very, very long time.

And as for (2): the brown stuff you see is ruined metol. Premixed homemade D76 will not be reliable if the metol has started to go bad.

 

[kiemchacsu]

There should be no risk of cross-contamination. All your chemicals should be separate until you add them in order to water for mixing. There is no advantage to mixing together the powders before adding to water. Dry, in closed containers, all those chemicals last for a very, very long time.

And as for (2): the brown stuff you see is ruined metol. Premixed homemade D76 will not be reliable if the metol has started to go bad.

I don’t want to measure chemicals every time that’s why I make several already mixed powder of d76 kits in one time. I have to test the kit with some brown color stuffs to check if it’s still good. Question 3: among 4 ingredients, can i put metol and borax in one zip bag and the other 2 in another bag to prevent crossed contamination?

Wondering what is the secret ingredient in Kodak package D76 to make the whole thing fine.

 

[retina_restoration]

I don’t want to measure chemicals every time that’s why I make several already mixed powder of d76 kits in one time. I have to test the kit with some brown color stuffs to check if it’s still good. Question 3: among 4 ingredients, can i put metol and borax in one zip bag and the other 2 in another bag to prevent crossed contamination?

Wondering what is the secret ingredient in Kodak package D76 to make the whole thing fine.

Packaged D-76 uses a sequestering agent to prevent reactions between the mixed components, so yes - there is a “secret ingredient“.
Mixing the dry components yourself without the sequestering agent will result in degradation of the chemistry. If I were you, I’d measure all of the components into separate bags and not mix them together at all, if your goal is to avoid measuring chemicals every time.

 

[kiemchacsu]

Packaged D-76 uses a sequestering agent to prevent reactions between the mixed components, so yes - there is a “secret ingredient“.
Mixing the dry components yourself without the sequestering agent will result in degradation of the chemistry. If I were you, I’d measure all of the components into separate bags and not mix them together at all, if your goal is to avoid measuring chemicals every time.

I know that would the the last resort which separated raw ingredients into 4 zip bags,
Still looking for advice from experience members in order to optimize the procedures

 

[Kino]

Mixing D76 from raw, separate container chemicals is not hard or time consuming.

If you are unwilling to do that, you should just buy the Kodak mix because THEY have already figured-out how to pre-mix the ingredients.

 

[retina_restoration]

I know that would the the last resort which separated raw ingredients into 4 zip bags,
Still looking for advice from experience members in order to optimize the procedures

I just gave you "experience advice". (I've been developing my own film since 1974, so I guess I know a few things)

Mixing D76 from raw, separate container chemicals is not hard or time consuming.

If you are unwilling to do that, you should just buy the Kodak mix because THEY have already figured-out how to pre-mix the ingredients.

I agree. If you can't be bothered to measure the ingredients each time you need D-76, then just buy it as packaged Kodak D-76. Make a gallon each time so you don't have to make it too often. How hard can that be??

 

[kiemchacsu]

I just gave you "experience advice". (I've been developing my own film since 1974, so I guess I know a few things)


I agree. If you can't be bothered to measure the ingredients each time you need D-76, then just buy it as packaged Kodak D-76. Make a gallon each time so you don't have to make it too often. How hard can that be??

No, it’s not hard at all.
But I have my own reasons to make several kit d76 at once. For instance to give them to some other people who don’t have their own raw materials.
I will separate 4 ingredients into 4 zip bags, as you has mentioned above. Thanks all for thoughtful opinions.

 

[John Wiegerink]

No, it’s not hard at all.
But I have my own reasons to make several kit d76 at once. For instance to give them to some other people who don’t have their own raw materials.
I will separate 4 ingredients into 4 zip bags, as you has mentioned above. Thanks all for thoughtful opinions.

Paul is 100% on about keeping chemicals separate from each other. Certain chems don't mind being exposed to other certain chems, but some react almost instantly and react in a negative way, not positive. Play it safe and consistent!

 

[koraks]

Packaged D-76 uses a sequestering agent to prevent reactions between the mixed components

This is a technicality, but I think there are two things that may be going on side by side in a commercially packaged developer that got mixed up in your statement here. I'll expand on a post by Photo Engineer here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/d76-vs-id11.61798/post-881340

One of them is sequestering, the other has to do with keeping dry ingredients from interacting with each other as well as possibly controlling the rate and/or order of dissolution. The sequestering agent (also often called a 'chelating' agent, although there's technically a difference even though the purpose and overall concept is the same) is intended to capture unwanted ions in the developer when it's mixed with water. In photographic developers, this is mostly aimed at capturing iron ions in (tap) water as they can trigger undesirable reactions in the developer that result in an unpredictable and short lifespan.

The other, which you are referring to, is a method that's usually called 'encapsulation', which basically consists of controlling particle makeup of the developer constituents. Through this method, it's possible to protect one or more constituents from interactions with their environment. This encapsulation can serve other purposes as well and may include for instance anti-caking agents that promote easy flow of the powder from the package.

Adding a chelating or sequestering agent to your DIY developer is easy. 'Calgon' used to be popular (sodium hexametaphosphate), EDTA is also often used. Encapsulation, on the other hand, isn't really feasible for the home darkroom user, at least not to the best of my knowledge.

Of course, all this fancy nuance changes nothing about what you recommended and I also subscribe to: just keep the dry ingredients separated and Bob's your uncle.

 

[kiemchacsu]

This is a technicality, but I think there are two things that may be going on side by side in a commercially packaged developer that got mixed up in your statement here. I'll expand on a post by Photo Engineer here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/d76-vs-id11.61798/post-881340

following your link to the post here, i decided to give the two-packages a try, as someone said:
- A: sodium sulfite and borax
- B: developing agents which are metol and hidroquinone

I will give feedback few days later, when observing the mixed ingredients.

 

[MattKing]

If you are going to use small plastic bags, you should be sure to empty them completely into the mix using rinse water.
Varying amounts of particles adhering to the bags will affect the consistency of the mix.
Small plastic (or even better glass) containers might be better than bags.
FYI, the reason that Ilford ID-11 comes in two packages while Kodak D-76 comes in one is that Kodak developed and patented the encapsulation technique that made the single package possible at that time.

 

[ags2mikon]

@kiemchacsu, Here is how I do my mixing. I ordered small amber glass Boston rounds with poly-cone caps from Amazon in various sizes, 15ml on up to 250ml. I then label them and pour the pre weighed metol into a dozen bottles and the sodium sulfite into the other dozen bottles of appropriate size. Now I have 12 “kits” of D-23 pre weighed and ready to go. These are placed into ziplock baggies just for convieniance. 12 kits take just a little more time than just one kit so it saves me time. I also do this with D-72 paper developer. When I need developer I put my beaker on the magnetic stirrer and pour in 1000ml of warm water and drop a pinch or two of sulfite and then the metol, let it mix in and then add the rest of the sulfite. I then rinse the bottles with a syringe and the cold water that will make up the rest of the 2000ml mix and set the bottles on a rack to dry. My rack is one of those plastic tool socket holders sold at Harbor Freight.

 

[Don_ih]

i decided to give the two-packages a try

You'll want to try to make the container containing metol & hydroquinone as air=-tight as possible. Moisture in the air will cause those to degrade.

Otherwise, it should work fine.