Herb developer

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

It shouldn't be impossible to obtain a small quantity of pure thymol, mix it up with some sodium carbonate, and see (first) if it will blacken a piece of leader in the light.

Well @Ślepy Fotografer can perhaps try developing film in his recipe without Ascorbic acid and tell us what he gets.

 

[gone]

If I can smoke it or eat it and get high, I am all in.

Exactly my words when a neighbor handed me a Christmas present. She said it was neither, so it's still sitting unopened.

Wouldn't it be nice to have herb scented films? Clove is nice, but a little might go a long way. If Foma 200 smelled pretty, I might shoot it again. Maybe.

 

[AgX]

No idea, I thought Thymol was used mostly as a disinfectant. Do you have any reference that you can share?

Ever thought how thyme was used? This should give you the answer.

Same applies on other phenolderivates found in some spices.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Ever thought how thyme was used? This should give you the answer.

As a condiment/cooking herb, as well as a medicinal. Now sure how that says anything about its photographic qualities, though.

 

[Don_ih]

Well, I couldn't find any thyme, so someone else needs to check that. But a handful of mint from outside, steeped in 300ml of boiling water with a tablespoon of oregano and a tablespoon of rosemary, strained, then half was mixed heartily with a heaping spoonful of borax developed, in 8 minutes, totally blank film. The other half was mixed with a spoonful of sodium carbonate and is doing a good job of washing the film leader that's been soaking in it for 15 minutes - but it's not turning black.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Hmmm.

You're busting my myths, Don!

Any idea what kind of mint?

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Well, I couldn't find any thyme, so someone else needs to check that. But a handful of mint from outside, steeped in 300ml of boiling water with a tablespoon of oregano and a tablespoon of rosemary, strained, then half was mixed heartily with a heaping spoonful of borax developed, in 8 minutes, totally blank film. The other half was mixed with a spoonful of sodium carbonate and is doing a good job of washing the film leader that's been soaking in it for 15 minutes - but it's not turning black.

My experience was very much the same when I did similar experiments with Indian herbs that are rich in polyphenols. Only when Ascorbic acid was added, the film blackened. I tested for supposed superadditivity, but I found no evidence.

 

[Don_ih]

Any idea what kind of mint?

It's so-called "chocolate" mint (smells a bit chocolatey) that I planted about 5 years ago - one plant that now has taken over a hectare (an exaggeration, almost). I didn't have that much faith in it so I dumped in the other stuff because they also are on the list of things containing polyphenols. I previously (a couple of months ago) tried it with cloves and got clove-scented blank film.

 

[npl]

I did it once : fomapan 400 in classic caffenol CH recipe, but with 3g of dried thyme instead of instant coffee. I made the thyme infusion the day before in 150ml or 200ml water, can't remember exactly. Full recipe for 500ml : 27g washing soda, 8g ascorbic acid, 3g thyme, 5g iodised salt.

My experiment was very limited (a few frames at the end of the roll, bad light) but it works, and I believe the results are similar to the regular caffenol recipe. I was planning to do it again, this time with fomapan 100 @80, no salt (caffenol CM), 12min, but never got around to.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Apples and bannanas contain catechol - it's the catechol oxidizing that turns the fruit brown when it is exposed to air.

Fresh apple juice (straight from the fruit and not yet turning brown) and s. carbonate might make a developer. Or might not...

I think vegetable developers are in the same class as dancing dogs - it's not a matter of how well the dog dances but that it dances at all.

 

[mshchem]

Apples and bannanas contain catechol - it's the catechol oxidizing that turns the fruit brown when it is exposed to air.

Fresh apple juice (straight from the fruit and not yet turning brown) and s. carbonate might make a developer. Or might not...

I think vegetable developers are in the same class as dancing dogs - it's not a matter of how well the dog dances but that it dances at all.

Dancing dogs! Sign me up.
As long as people are having fun. Personally I prefer chemicals.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

My experiment was very limited (a few frames at the end of the roll, bad light) but it works,

Take Thyme out of your formula and it will still work.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Apples and bannanas contain catechol - it's the catechol oxidizing that turns the fruit brown when it is exposed to air.

Fresh apple juice (straight from the fruit and not yet turning brown) and s. carbonate might make a developer. Or might not...

Trace amount of Catechol found in fruits is not sufficient to develop film by itself. You need at least 0.1g / l and if apple juice has that high amount of Catechol, you shouldn't be drinking it in the first place.

It is the Ascorbic acid in the so called edible developers that is doing the development.

 

[npl]

Take Thyme out of your formula and it will still work.

From what I read at the time, I doubt it. You need phenols to work with the vitamine C (https://phytogram.blog/why-it-works), altought it might work with a LOT of ascorbic acid ? never saw any proof of that so far, and even so it would be quite pointless given the high cost of pure ascorbic acid. They didn't add instant coffee for it's pleasant smell when they designed caffenol in the 90's

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

From what I read at the time, I doubt it.

No problem. There are many claims being made about herbal and edible developers without proper testing. It doesn't take much effort to do a test where you develop two strips of exposed film, one using your favourite herbal developer and other with the same developer without the herb (adjust pH to be the same as the other) and convince yourself and the world that herbs did something that Ascorbic acid couldn't.

 

[npl]

No problem. There are many claims being made about herbal and edible developers without proper testing. It doesn't take much effort to do a test where you develop two strips of exposed film, one using your favourite herbal developer and other with the same developer without the herb (adjust pH to be the same as the other) and convince yourself and the world that herbs did something that Ascorbic acid couldn't.

Sure, but it works both way, why don't you test your theory that the biggest part of the caffenol recipe is bogus and the litterature about the role of phenols is wrong ? It's not the first time I come across this statement, never saw photos of negatives to back it up. Meantime, an article posted earlier in this thread clearly show how different source of phenols have different effects : https://www.35mmc.com/18/08/2020/po...es-a-world-full-of-options-by-daniel-keating/

Edit : actually, the above article talk about the "ascorbic acid only" in the very end.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Sure, but it works both way, why don't you test your theory that the biggest part of the caffenol recipe is bogus and the litterature about the role of phenols is wrong ? .

I didn't say Caffenol is bogus, so please don't misquote me. I have experimented with herbal developers and like @Don Heisz I too found that they don't work as claimed. As far as Daniel Keating is concerned, Jay DeFehr and I tried to replicate his work independently after he posted his results in a Facebook group - Jay with exactly same herb Daniel used and I with poly-phenol rich Indian herbs. Our results were similar - no evidence that the herbs did any development except possibly alter pH of the developer. You don't have to believe Daniel or me or anyone- you can do a simple test and find out yourself.

 

[npl]

I didn't say Caffenol is bogus, so please don't misquote me. I have experimented with herbal developers and like @Don Heisz I too found that they don't work as claimed. As far as Daniel Keating is concerned, Jay DeFehr and I tried to replicate his work independently after he posted his results in a Facebook group - Jay with exactly same herb Daniel used and I with poly-phenol rich Indian herbs. Our results were similar - no evidence that the herbs did any development except possibly alter pH of the developer. You don't have to believe Daniel or me or anyone- you can do a simple test and find out yourself.

No problem in believing you, but I definitely don't understand something here, might be me.. . you say that you used polyphenol rich herbs and had similar results, meaning no developement or working development ? did you used ascorbic acid and washing soda with your herbs ? what did it prove in the end ? you implied in your first reply that vitamin C alone with something to get the PH right would work so i'm confused.. what exactly should one test ? Thanks

 

[Donald Qualls]

They didn't add instant coffee for it's pleasant smell when they designed caffenol in the 90's

That's for damned sure. But original Caffenol had no vitamin C -- I've used it that way, back around 2003 -- and worked fine (gave more stain than the version with C, but it was slow working and lost half a stop of film speed even with extended development and reduced agitation (a process that gains 1/3 stop or more with Parodinal). Adding ascorbate makes it quicker, gets back the film speed, and reduces the overall stain.

One of our gallery posters uses "beerol" -- Rainier beer developer -- is that with or without ascorbate?

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Where is the confusion when I said your Thyme based developer will work without Thyme? Take your favourite Thyme (or any herb) based developer formula. Call it A. Now remove Thyme from it. Call it B. Go shoot two strips of film, preferably identical scenes. Prepare two sets of working solutions one as per formula A and the other as per formula B. Adjust pH of the working solutions using additional Sodium carbonate to bring pH of both to the same level. Develop one strip of exposed film using the first working solution and the other using the second working solution for the same amount of time. Compare the results.

As far as my experiments are concerned, they proved two things to me: a) herbs won't develop film in the absence of Ascorbic acid implying that they have very weak or no developing power on their own b) herbs don't increase the developing power of Ascorbic acid i.e. they are not super-additive or even additive with Ascorbic acid. In summary, it is the Ascorbic acid in herb developers that is doing all the development. So there is no good reason for me to use herbs.

Cheers and have a great week (whatever is remaining) ahead.

 

[tezzasmall]

Just looking at the link given: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/edible-film-developers.33501/page-22 I was the last poster.

Since then, (I meant to report back) I tried various things recommended as well as things not(!) trying to find a herbal paper developer.

I tried fresh and dried rosemary quite a lot, in various amounts. With a brew of rosemary only I managed to get a mid grey on the paper = about 5/10. Adding vitamin C and sodium carbonate, I got a much darker tone at about 9/10, although this was a test with white light. Using the enlarger and LONG negative exposures, produced little or only very slight tones on the paper. Having just read the comments previous to mine, a test would have to be done of the last two ingredients alone as well, which I didn't do.

I also tried actual cloves along with clove and other various essential oils alone and then mixed with polysorbate 20, a 'solubiliser', which helps the oils mix into the liquid better. All of this was to little or no effect though.

Finally, I tried human urine, at various strengths, as it was also recommended, again with and without the vitamin C and sodium carbonate. No tone in the paper was forthcoming and the stronger strengths are definitely NOT recommended in a small darkroom without good ventilation!!!

Terry S

P.S. I'll also post these comments on the link above, just so anyone else reading it in the future will know what I got up to after my last comment. I will also link it to here.

 

[tezzasmall]

I have now also watched the video in post #1, and am impressed by the negatives / prints made from the film.

I now wonder even more though, how much of the developing action is done by the two added chemicals of vitamin C and sodium carbonate? A test or two needs to be done...

Terry S

 

[Donald Qualls]

Ascorbate is well known to be a hydroquinone-like developing agent in its own right. Sodium carbonate is not, but testing on enlarging paper isn't conclusive because many/most such papers have developing agents incorporated in the emulsion -- IIRC, to increase the sensitivity -- such that a simple solution of sodium carbonate or sodium hydroxide will cause some level of development. This will not occur with film...

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Catnip toners... wonder if that would work. I'll steal some from my cat and see...

 

[npl]

The french wikipedia article about caffeic acid has a neat chart with the concentration in various herbs, seeds, spices... : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acide_caféique?wprov=sfla1
English : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeic_acid?wprov=sfla1

Salvia, mint and thyme, that you often see mentionned on forum post / articles about plant-based developers, are (almost) the top three.

So, we all (?) know that caffenol works. Those who tested other common source of phenol / caffeic acid (I don't know what they should be called) in the recipe, including myself (only thyme so far), know that it works too, if you get the amount right. Donald Qualls here reminded us that caffenol didn't used to have ascorbic acid, and that worked too with extended times. Now, it seem logical to conclude that removing one of the three component (sodium carbonate, ascorbic acid, phenol) will either not work, or will need extended time and/or lot of quantities, which seem pointless and pricier, especially if it's pure vitamin C. But for the sake of experimentation and curiosity, i'd be tempted to test 1) the old caffenol recipe without vitamin C and the same amount of thyme that previously worked for me instead of coffee : If somebody has a good, proven recipe, please share 2) the regular caffenol recipe with only ascorbic acid and washing soda, because if herbs are useless and the ascorbic acid is doing all the work, instant coffee is useless too, right ? I don't own a PH meter so i'll need to buy that first and i'm out of cheap film, so by all mean is somebody else is curious, beat me to it . I see no reason has to why n°1 should fail and n°2 should work, but who knows..