Help me figure out what's wrong with my light meter?

[dcy]

The other disadvantage of incident light metering is that sometimes you have difficulty getting the meter where it needs to be in order to measure the light incident on the subject - think photos from long distances, for example.

Yeah. I was meaning to ask about that. For distant subjects like landscapes and buildings, am I right to think that the only option is to get better at using reflected light meters? I'm at the stage that when I go out shooting, I think about how the subject compares to 18% gray, and whether the background is brighter/dimmer than the subject, and uneven indoor lighting.

This weekend I did a couple of trips to a cool indoor location with lots of neon signs and very uneven lighting. I shot two rolls and took some notes on what I did. I will develop the rolls later this week and see how they turn out.

 

[Taylor Nankervis]

Yeah. I was meaning to ask about that. For distant subjects like landscapes and buildings, am I right to think that the only option is to get better at using reflected light meters? I'm at the stage that when I go out shooting, I think about how the subject compares to 18% gray, and whether the background is brighter/dimmer than the subject, and uneven indoor lighting.

This weekend I did a couple of trips to a cool indoor location with lots of neon signs and very uneven lighting. I shot two rolls and took some notes on what I did. I will develop the rolls later this week and see how they turn out.

A better idea for landscape would be to diversity your metering toolkit.
For landscapes here in Australia you will see most practitioners using multispot/incident meters.
It is a false idyll to hold out an incident meter when the scene beyond you and the meter has several variations of light and tone! And don't start me on that cute Zone system stuff.
There is a learning curve involved in migrating from incident-only to multispot/averaging with challenging scenes and the expansion of dynamic range of narrow DR films. The natural lighting in Tasmania, for example, changes rapidly and requires great dexterity — mental and physical — to track all attendant changes and influences. So for us, it's always spot/multispot. Incident metering was never my go-to methodology on any format in the landscape genre and still is not; occasional portraiture makes use of multi-incident, but outside of that, definitely not for landscape when the image must be bagged.

 

[BrianShaw]

@dcy For your general knowledge and awareness (but do yourself a favor and then FORGET about it for ordinary scene shooting!)

• the flat disk can be used for metering the illumination of FLAT ART
• the flat disk can be used for metering studio lighting to determine light source *intensity ratios* for portaiture illumination setup of lighting contrast
• the flat disk can be utilized for other techniques like 'duplex metering'

For usual scenes, the use of the incident meter is rather simple and free from error, when you apply the very basics of use..

1. put you meter in a area which is at your subject (or in light which iis very similar to that striking your main subject, when you cannot be at your subject)
2. aim the meter hemisphere at the camera lens position, so it integrates what your lens sees, how the light strikes the subject
3. make sure your meter is in the right mode (ambient vs flash)

any more is making it more complex than it needs to be ordinarily.
In comparison, reflected light metering is inherently complicated by meter angle of view, the error due to subjects themselves beeing brighter/darker than 'midtone average', all of which can entail the use of compensatory ways to counter-bias the errant reading.

Amen…

 

[gary mulder]

In the past when organising workshops analog photography the most valuable methode to learn to expose film the best way was to let the participants expose some sheets slide film in the morning and develop them in the lunch break. After lunch we could discuss the result. Even for the most inexperienced person it will be clearly visible if the exposure went wrong. In a group of 10 persons there were always some mistakes. I never found a better way to educate the effects of right/wrong way measuring the light.
This also underwrites my vision on photography. If you cannot see it in the end result it’s probably not relevant for the taking of the photograph.

 

[wiltw]

Yeah. I was meaning to ask about that. For distant subjects like landscapes and buildings, am I right to think that the only option is to get better at using reflected light meters?

Concept is simple...analyze if the light at the far-away subject is similar to light close to your location. In many cases, sunlit area a mile away is just like sunlit area at your location...unless localized clouds in the sky affect the lighting at the scene but not at your location, for example. So unless there are localized clouds at one location but not the other, if the incident meter says ISO 250 1/250 f/11 +0.8EV near you, it will also be ISO 250 1/250 f/11 + 0.8EV there too!

The complexity is that the SUBJECT BRIGHTNESS is reliant upon its inherent tonality, which is likely not to be 'midtone' (18%) reflectance. Look at how the apparent brightness of different colors measures out...and that can strongly affect the biasing of any reflected measurement, if one color predominated in the scene. One can train your eye about 'midtone' shade of gray. But without measurement, how many 'midtone' patches exist on this color card? Count how many 'midtone'...

This shows measured relative brightness...few true midtones!

Yes, it is possible to learn compenatory techniques using reflected light measurements. It is a whole lot simpler to deal with simplicity of incident light metering at its most fundamental.

 

[dcy]

Concept is simple...analyze if the light at the far-away subject is similar to light close to your location. In many cases, sunlit area a mile away is just like sunlit area at your location... unless localized clouds in the sky affect the lighting at the scene but not at your location, for example.

That is indeed the typical case for me.

So unless there are localized clouds at one location but not the other, if the incident meter says ISO 250 1/250 f/11 +0.8EV near you, it will also be ISO 250 1/250 f/11 + 0.8EV there too!

Oh! ... So I just take an incident light meter in lighting conditions that look similar to the subject?

For example, I want to take a picture of a beautiful sun-lit clock tower. So I take a couple of steps to step into the sun, take an incident meter reading ... pointed in which direction?... and use that?

Yes, it is possible to learn compenatory techniques using reflected light measurements. It is a whole lot simpler to deal with simplicity of incident light metering at its most fundamental.

Yeah. The incident meter sounds much easier than reflected light.

Consider the following tricky scenario: You're in an indoor location with cool neon signs and lots of interesting decorations along the walls. The neon signs are much brighter than the wall, and they make the lighting very uneven.

What would you recommend in that scenario?

 

[MattKing]

Oh! ... So I just take an incident light meter in lighting conditions that look similar to the subject?

"similar" is a bit iffy in this context.

For example, I want to take a picture of a beautiful sun-lit clock tower. So I take a couple of steps to step into the sun, take an incident meter reading ... pointed in which direction?... and use that?

A tough one, because it is difficult to get into a position where the light hitting the dome on the meter is coming at the meter from the same angle as the sun is coming at the top of the tower.
In addition, you would have some light off the ground surface that is also affecting the reading - that bounced light won't be in play at the top of the tower.
All of which highlights the importance of applying judgment to any meter's results.

Consider the following tricky scenario: You're in an indoor location with cool neon signs and lots of interesting decorations along the walls. The neon signs are much brighter than the wall, and they make the lighting very uneven.

What would you recommend in that scenario?

Take a reflected light reading off the wall, a reflected light reading off the neon, and bracket a lot between those two readings.
And take notes that allow you to look back at what you did, and compare that with what works - you are trying to build a repository of experience that helps guide you in the future.

 

[mshchem]

Concept is simple...analyze if the light at the far-away subject is similar to light close to your location. In many cases, sunlit area a mile away is just like sunlit area at your location...unless localized clouds in the sky affect the lighting at the scene but not at your location, for example. So unless there are localized clouds at one location but not the other, if the incident meter says ISO 250 1/250 f/11 +0.8EV near you, it will also be ISO 250 1/250 f/11 + 0.8EV there too!

The complexity is that the SUBJECT BRIGHTNESS is reliant upon its inherent tonality, which is likely not to be 'midtone' (18%) reflectance. Look at how the apparent brightness of different colors measures out...and that can strongly affect the biasing of any reflected measurement, if one color predominated in the scene. One can train your eye about 'midtone' shade of gray. But without measurement, how many 'midtone' patches exist on this color card? Count how many 'midtone'...

This shows measured relative brightness...few true midtones!

Yes, it is possible to learn compenatory techniques using reflected light measurements. It is a whole lot simpler to deal with simplicity of incident light metering at its most fundamental.

Wow, what a great demonstration. A friend of mine Dave Johnson, who owned Photo Pro in Cedar Rapids Iowa sold me on incident meters in the early 80's. I'm just not adept at Zone system etc, so simple for me to use an incident meter.

I ruined a lot of slide film when I bought a Nikon switching from a Pentax Spotmatic. The center weighted Nikon vs the averaging meter of the Pentax really was (still is) a challenge. This why I struggle with reflected metering, I would have to carry a gray card, or something similar.
Thanks for sharing this!

 

[wiltw]

That is indeed the typical case for me.



Oh! ... So I just take an incident light meter in lighting conditions that look similar to the subject?

For example, I want to take a picture of a beautiful sun-lit clock tower. So I take a couple of steps to step into the sun, take an incident meter reading ... pointed in which direction?... and use that?


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Yeah. The incident meter sounds much easier than reflected light.

Consider the following tricky scenario: You're in an indoor location with cool neon signs and lots of interesting decorations along the walls. The neon signs are much brighter than the wall, and they make the lighting very uneven.

What would you recommend in that scenario?

I agree with Matt's analysis, some of it.

...in the case of the neon, it is its own light source, one which the incident meter would not necessarily detect...in effect the neon sign exposure is better seen with reflected meter, not incident.

The light at the top of the tower is not necessarily inherently brighter/darker than at the bottom, if the sun is illuminating it. OTOH, the ground/pavement itself does bounce sunlight back to the tower, so it could be that street level tower might be getting more light than the very top. But yet again, the ground is a 'giant reflector' and not a specular source, so top of tower is likely to get same amount of light as bottom of the tower. On this point I will disagree with Matt. Or you measure top vs. bottom with a one degree spotmeter to find out if Matt is wrong or I am wrong.

 

[dcy]

YouTuber John Finch has a short video on incident light meters. He suggests that, for a landscape photo, you hold the meter (still in incident mode) on the same line of sight that the camera has to the subject (pointing to the camera) and take the measurement that way.



Of course, he's assuming that the lighting / cloud cover is the same in both locations.

 

[dcy]

Last week I ordered cute Norwood Director Model C light meter from the 1950s that I found on eBay for $10. I got it as a collectible, fully expecting that by now the selenium cell would've lost sensitivity and the meter wouldn't work. It arrived yesterday and I tested it today. To my surprise, it seems to work just fine and gives results consistent with the Gossen Luna Pro F.

 

[BrianShaw]

Yay! You are ready to do some “serious” photography now!!

I like the way you hunt down the bargains!!!