Help Choosing a Sub-Compact 16mm Camera

[Cholentpot]

It's a great day to be a Minolta 16 shooter. Just got an email from film photography store that they are taking preorders for 3D printed Minolta 16 cartridges. Film not included.
$9.99. Not bad.

I saw this, it's great! I wonder how they'll hold up to abuse. Then again, who cares if they're printing them anyhow. I wonder if these things are Kiev compatible.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I agree, $10 isn't bad for a new cassette. I've got a number of them, but they're all original Minolta or Kiev production, meaning at least forty years old. There used to be (maybe still is?) a seller who sold resin cast repro cassettes on eBay, but they were reputed to be pretty bad -- light leaks, some wouldn't fit into the camera, film scratching, and the bridges were fragile. Worth knowing, however, that the bridge is mainly for ease of extracting the cassette from the camera; they'll work perfectly with the bridge entirely gone and film just loaded into the chambers as if the cassette were intact. Just a little tricky getting the empty supply chamber out of some cameras (some folks have even loaded in the dark by just coiling the film into the supply area of the camera, using a takeup chamber and spool only).

Does anyone know if FPP is pre-installing the light trap felt/velvet in the chambers and caps, or is that up to the purchaser?

 

[Donald Qualls]

I saw this, it's great! I wonder how they'll hold up to abuse. Then again, who cares if they're printing them anyhow. I wonder if these things are Kiev compatible.

Any Minolta cassette will work in any Kiev Vega, 30, or 303, but not the other way around. The Kiev cassettes have a smaller inside diameter on the takeup spool, to accommodate 30 exposure film, and the drive fork in the camera is narrower to accommodate. The smaller spool won't fit over the drive fork in a Minolta camera, but the larger Minolta one fits and works fine in the Kiev cameras.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I am curious if anyone sells the Kiev cassettes. i never see them on ebay. I was thinking of getting one of those.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I am curious if anyone sells the Kiev cassettes. i never see them on ebay. I was thinking of getting one of those.

I don't think I've seen Kiev cassettes sold without the cameras, but a camera often comes with one or two (one that shows in the kit photo, and another inside the camera). Since all Minolta cassettes will work in a Kiev camera, it doesn't matter much.

 

[Cholentpot]

Any Minolta cassette will work in any Kiev Vega, 30, or 303, but not the other way around. The Kiev cassettes have a smaller inside diameter on the takeup spool, to accommodate 30 exposure film, and the drive fork in the camera is narrower to accommodate. The smaller spool won't fit over the drive fork in a Minolta camera, but the larger Minolta one fits and works fine in the Kiev cameras.

Thanks,

I've jammed far more than 30 exposures into my Kiev 30...

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I don't think I've seen Kiev cassettes sold without the cameras, but a camera often comes with one or two (one that shows in the kit photo, and another inside the camera). Since all Minolta cassettes will work in a Kiev camera, it doesn't matter much.

That is what I was noticing Donald. Millions of cameras on ebay, but no cassettes!

 

[eli griggs]

That's what I'm talking about; good for them.

IMO.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Thanks,

I've jammed far more than 30 exposures into my Kiev 30...

Oh, yes. I've stuffed in strips cut from 120 (leftover from making 127), full 120 length. Problem is, the counter only runs up to 30, so it stops compensating for diameter buildup (which it doesn't do perfectly anyway, with 120 thickness film) and you have no way to know what's left on the roll. With the appr. 20 mm advance that should happen (13x17 frame and 3mm between, roughly), you'd get 60-plus, maybe as many as 70 exposures on a 120 length strip -- so I generally cut them in half. In reality, though, the frame spacing expands, and after the counter runs out it expands a lot, so a full 120 length strip is good for fewer than 50, and with no way to know where you are other than "past 30" I usually wind up unloading with film still in the gate. Not to mention I don't have a tank that will handle that length of 16 mm well (my homemade submini tank will do it, if I load it in the light, but I can't get the film wrapped onto the core that neatly in the dark).

 

[Cholentpot]

Oh, yes. I've stuffed in strips cut from 120 (leftover from making 127), full 120 length. Problem is, the counter only runs up to 30, so it stops compensating for diameter buildup (which it doesn't do perfectly anyway, with 120 thickness film) and you have no way to know what's left on the roll. With the appr. 20 mm advance that should happen (13x17 frame and 3mm between, roughly), you'd get 60-plus, maybe as many as 70 exposures on a 120 length strip -- so I generally cut them in half. In reality, though, the frame spacing expands, and after the counter runs out it expands a lot, so a full 120 length strip is good for fewer than 50, and with no way to know where you are other than "past 30" I usually wind up unloading with film still in the gate. Not to mention I don't have a tank that will handle that length of 16 mm well (my homemade submini tank will do it, if I load it in the light, but I can't get the film wrapped onto the core that neatly in the dark).

I reset the counter and keep shooting. I generally am not shooting photos that are life affirming or important with these cameras. It's for fun.

I have a Yankee Clipper that can handle a full 35mm 36 exposure length.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I have a Yankee Clipper that can handle a full 35mm 36 exposure length.

But can it process a roll of 16 mm with two ounces of developer? Mine is a length of black ABS pipe, cap on bottom, filler spout (just a piece of gray PVC in a central hole in another cap) on top -- and then a length of smaller pipe with a pair of caps glued on, the caps turned down on a lathe so they're a drop-in fit for the larger pipe and length cut to give enough space to pour chemicals in and out (the bottom end of the PVC filler spout is notched to ensure that a floating core won't block chemical flow). Film wraps onto the outside of the core, emulsion out, close it up, and develop like any other inversion type tank (there's another cap on the PVC filling spout).

In order to ensure the dyes come out of the back surface (for films that need it), pull the core out after a little fixing and unwind the film to stand in a tray of (reusable) fixer. I've gotten great results with various microfilm stocks (Copex Rapid is best -- sure going to miss that when I run out). I don't seem to have a photo of the tank itself, and haven't found it yet (still unpacking my equipment, likely to be a while before it's all done) -- but here's a result.

Kiev 303, Copex Rapid, Caffenol LC+C, scan from print.

 

[Cholentpot]

But can it process a roll of 16 mm with two ounces of developer? Mine is a length of black ABS pipe, cap on bottom, filler spout (just a piece of gray PVC in a central hole in another cap) on top -- and then a length of smaller pipe with a pair of caps glued on, the caps turned down on a lathe so they're a drop-in fit for the larger pipe and length cut to give enough space to pour chemicals in and out (the bottom end of the PVC filler spout is notched to ensure that a floating core won't block chemical flow). Film wraps onto the outside of the core, emulsion out, close it up, and develop like any other inversion type tank (there's another cap on the PVC filling spout).

In order to ensure the dyes come out of the back surface (for films that need it), pull the core out after a little fixing and unwind the film to stand in a tray of (reusable) fixer. I've gotten great results with various microfilm stocks (Copex Rapid is best -- sure going to miss that when I run out). I don't seem to have a photo of the tank itself, and haven't found it yet (still unpacking my equipment, likely to be a while before it's all done) -- but here's a result.

View attachment 245985

Kiev 303, Copex Rapid, Caffenol LC+C, scan from print.

I'm gonna need a photo of that tank when you get it please. The Clipper isn't that great...

I tend to develop my Kodak Microfilm in Rodinal 1:175 for two hours stand. I get decent contrast with this. Shot at around 50 ISO maybe lower to 25 if I can.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I made a high-dilution version of Caffenol that I liked a lot with Copex Rapid and (then Adox) CMS 20:

8 oz Water
.26 g (4 grain) Ascorbic acid or erythorbic acid (supplement or technical, 97%)
4 tsp (level) Arm & Hammer Washing Soda
2 tsp (slightly rounded) Folger's Coffee Crystals

I developed 15 minutes at 20C, with agitation only every third minute, and got nice effects at EI 64 to 80 for Copex Rapid 16mm, or EI 32 for CMS 20 in 35 mm. Both had no detectable grain, or coffee stain.

I know more or less where the tank is, but I won't be able to dig for it until the house is back in order. The week before last, we had to tear out the whole kitchen (floor and counters) and the living room carpet (and part of the sub-floor) to fix a floor damaged by a sink leak, and then last week, I had my darkroom space walled in, mobile home door replaced with a better located standard door (that I can light seal), sink plumbed and counter with cabinet installed. Also, partner moved office into what was my radio/projects room, leaving the formerly shared office space to me (to use for radio, reloading, etc. outside the darkroom). So it's just like we'd moved, stuff on the floor all over the house, and painting and furniture delivery still in progress.

 

[Cholentpot]

I made a high-dilution version of Caffenol that I liked a lot with Copex Rapid and (then Adox) CMS 20:

8 oz Water
.26 g (4 grain) Ascorbic acid or erythorbic acid (supplement or technical, 97%)
4 tsp (level) Arm & Hammer Washing Soda
2 tsp (slightly rounded) Folger's Coffee Crystals

I developed 15 minutes at 20C, with agitation only every third minute, and got nice effects at EI 64 to 80 for Copex Rapid 16mm, or EI 32 for CMS 20 in 35 mm. Both had no detectable grain, or coffee stain.

I know more or less where the tank is, but I won't be able to dig for it until the house is back in order. The week before last, we had to tear out the whole kitchen (floor and counters) and the living room carpet (and part of the sub-floor) to fix a floor damaged by a sink leak, and then last week, I had my darkroom space walled in, mobile home door replaced with a better located standard door (that I can light seal), sink plumbed and counter with cabinet installed. Also, partner moved office into what was my radio/projects room, leaving the formerly shared office space to me (to use for radio, reloading, etc. outside the darkroom). So it's just like we'd moved, stuff on the floor all over the house, and painting and furniture delivery still in progress.

I have about 50 feet of Kodak IMAGELINK stuff. I shoot it at about 25, think this solution would give me decent results? I'm not doing too bad with Rodinal, I'm just wondering if I can get the speed up a bit so I can use in my Auto 110.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Standard Imagelink will never get up to EI 80-100 to work in a 110 camera without flash (and if you do use flash you have to cut distance to half the usual 4-10 feet, to be two stops brighter -- without getting so close your subject is out of focus). I used to shoot it at EI 25-32 in this soup. The higher speed version of Imagelink (HS?) will get to 50 in Caffenol LC+C the way I used it.

If you're having to buy new film, I'd suggest getting a roll of Ilford Ortho 80 in 120 and slitting it into three (without edge markings) or four (half mm undersize) strips. It's EI 80 to start with, and with a speed boosting developer you ought to be able to get it to 100 -- and it's still virtually grainless. Alternative would be Delta 100 or Pan F Plus with a one stop push.

 

[Cholentpot]

Standard Imagelink will never get up to EI 80-100 to work in a 110 camera without flash (and if you do use flash you have to cut distance to half the usual 4-10 feet, to be two stops brighter -- without getting so close your subject is out of focus). I used to shoot it at EI 25-32 in this soup. The higher speed version of Imagelink (HS?) will get to 50 in Caffenol LC+C the way I used it.

If you're having to buy new film, I'd suggest getting a roll of Ilford Ortho 80 in 120 and slitting it into three (without edge markings) or four (half mm undersize) strips. It's EI 80 to start with, and with a speed boosting developer you ought to be able to get it to 100 -- and it's still virtually grainless. Alternative would be Delta 100 or Pan F Plus with a one stop push.

I just slit 35mm when I need speed.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Different needs slit different ways. I've only ever slit 120 -- because of the backing paper, I can do the cut in the light on the spool (only a very narrow strip at the cut gets fogged, at least in common films), and I usually do it because I want 127 to respool; the 16 mm strip is a leftover. Still have to respool to 127 and load the 16mm strip in the dark, of course -- but that's more accessible to me than slitting 35 mm, plus I waste less film. A 35 mm strip will yield only a single 16mm strip due to the 6mm sprocket strips on both sides. Of course, you can also buy Tri-X Negative or Double-X Negative in 16mm single perf that will work in most 16 mm cameras and completely avoid the slitting or special developers, but you give up the super-fine grain of document stocks.

 

[Cholentpot]

Different needs slit different ways. I've only ever slit 120 -- because of the backing paper, I can do the cut in the light on the spool (only a very narrow strip at the cut gets fogged, at least in common films), and I usually do it because I want 127 to respool; the 16 mm strip is a leftover. Still have to respool to 127 and load the 16mm strip in the dark, of course -- but that's more accessible to me than slitting 35 mm, plus I waste less film. A 35 mm strip will yield only a single 16mm strip due to the 6mm sprocket strips on both sides. Of course, you can also buy Tri-X Negative or Double-X Negative in 16mm single perf that will work in most 16 mm cameras and completely avoid the slitting or special developers, but you give up the super-fine grain of document stocks.

Double sprockets won't work in the Auto 110 though...

 

[Donald Qualls]

Double sprockets won't work in the Auto 110 though...

Double perfs will get into the image area in almost all 16 mm still cameras -- other than Rollei and Edixa 16, which use both perfs for frame counting (they're like a miniature 35 mm, including rewind cassette and requiring a takeup spool that's often missing). Most 16mm stocks, however, give a choice of single perf or double (and some offer Double 8, 16mm wide with halved sprocket pitch, for two-pass 8mm cameras) -- and a lot of 16 mm filmmakers use single perf for Super 16 cameras. Single perf ought to work in an Auto 110 if you tape down the stop finger (likely also in many other 110 cameras); it also works in Minolta compatible cameras, if loaded with perfs toward the cassette bridge, and in Yashica 16. Otherwise, you're stuck slitting down either 35mm or 120.

 

[Cholentpot]

Double perfs will get into the image area in almost all 16 mm still cameras -- other than Rollei and Edixa 16, which use both perfs for frame counting (they're like a miniature 35 mm, including rewind cassette and requiring a takeup spool that's often missing). Most 16mm stocks, however, give a choice of single perf or double (and some offer Double 8, 16mm wide with halved sprocket pitch, for two-pass 8mm cameras) -- and a lot of 16 mm filmmakers use single perf for Super 16 cameras. Single perf ought to work in an Auto 110 if you tape down the stop finger (likely also in many other 110 cameras); it also works in Minolta compatible cameras, if loaded with perfs toward the cassette bridge, and in Yashica 16. Otherwise, you're stuck slitting down either 35mm or 120.

Single perf works if you align the perfs to the top and have them avoid that lever...The Auto 110 exposes the frames upside down, so keeping that in mind the perfs end up in the bottom of the frame.

 

[Donald Qualls]

If you put the single perfs where the one perf per frame would have been (top of the cartridge, with the original label upright) with original 110 film they should stay out of the image.

But *everything* exposes the frame upside down -- the reason you get perfs just at the top edge of frame in a Kiev 30, for instance, is because the cassette loads with the bridge at the camera bottom. If the Auto 110 reverses the supply and takeup spools from other 110 cameras, then the top of the cassette will be top of frame -- but your image seems to have top of cassette at bottom of frame (images are offset toward one edge on 110, are they not?)

 

[Cholentpot]

If you put the single perfs where the one perf per frame would have been (top of the cartridge, with the original label upright) with original 110 film they should stay out of the image.

But *everything* exposes the frame upside down -- the reason you get perfs just at the top edge of frame in a Kiev 30, for instance, is because the cassette loads with the bridge at the camera bottom. If the Auto 110 reverses the supply and takeup spools from other 110 cameras, then the top of the cassette will be top of frame -- but your image seems to have top of cassette at bottom of frame (images are offset toward one edge on 110, are they not?)

110 offsets yep.

Good point about the Kiev.

 

[WD4AON]

I’ve been messing about with 16mm now for about 25 years. If you like to tinker around with cameras then have at it. Through the years I’ve made modifications to my Minolta 16II camera’s that have made them easier to use and even made accessories to allow me to adapt series V filters and other accessories to the cameras. Thing is, I love working on and modifying cameras, I have more fun with that than actually taking pictures. There are all kinds of tricks. With the wife’s sewing machine and 120 film negative holders you can sew two stitches to make 3 holders for 16mm out of each 65mm sleeve. I’d write a book but #1, I cannot write well enough ( as anyone can see from my posts). And #2......well I’m just too lazy.

Ciniframe,
There is a resurgence of these tiny film cameras. Pl;ease share your knowledge with us!
Terry

 

[WD4AON]

It is a shame that no one ever made a really full featured 16mm/110 type camera.

I ended up getting a Rollei E110 which is really nice, but the shutter is intermittent. Which means it usually doesn't fire. I hear a click and the blades seem to move but they don't open. I am assuming something inside is dirty. I was wondering if anyone has ever opened one up? I was thinking about sending it to DAG but I don't think it is worth it.

Hi,
Try the Minox 110S and the Agfa Optima 6008 for 110 upscale!
Terry

 

[WD4AON]

I'm a 70 year old, baggy eyed, paunch gut, thinning hair, with jowls, and I tell my long suffering bride (of 32 years) that I shoot with old film cameras because they are 'chick magnets'. She just rolls her eyes.
There are duller ways to drive around for sure. The missus just bought herself a little Ford Ranger, it's for her, I sure can't fit in it. And guess what, it's a 2004, 5 speed with the carry on forever 2.3L engine. She loves it!

Hi,
My dentist is an underwater sportsman and does spearfishing. I showed him my Minolta QT and his response was, "Why would you mess with that when any cheap cellphone would take better pictures?" I said "For the same reason some people would spend 40 or 50 thousand on a boat to fish when the market sells a wide range of fresh fish for a few dollars a pound." No response!
Terry

Double perfs will get into the image area in almost all 16 mm still cameras -- other than Rollei and Edixa 16, which use both perfs for frame counting (they're like a miniature 35 mm, including rewind cassette and requiring a takeup spool that's often missing). Most 16mm stocks, however, give a choice of single perf or double (and some offer Double 8, 16mm wide with halved sprocket pitch, for two-pass 8mm cameras) -- and a lot of 16 mm filmmakers use single perf for Super 16 cameras. Single perf ought to work in an Auto 110 if you tape down the stop finger (likely also in many other 110 cameras); it also works in Minolta compatible cameras, if loaded with perfs toward the cassette bridge, and in Yashica 16. Otherwise, you're stuck slitting down either 35mm or 120.

Donald,.
I've enjoyed your posts. However, my Rollei 16 only needs single side perfs, and my Edixa doesn't even need them, as it uses a takle-ip spool, while the Rollei 16 does not. What are your radio interests?
Terry
w4aon