Help Choosing a Sub-Compact 16mm Camera

Cholentpot · Dec 4, 2019

ic-racer said:
Look this up please. The post is in error if you are referring to a 25mm lens on 16mm film. Historical information about the development of the fixed-aperture Minox f3.5 lens is required reading for informed discourse on this topic

I'm unsure of what you're alluding to.

I'm saying that shooting on my Minolta 16II at a larger aperture will result in a lower depth of field than I want. The camera cannot focus to infinity, however stopping down to f/8 and beyond will get you close. Now, if you tell me to shoot at f/4 on my Kiev 30 which has focusing or my Instamatic 60 which has a rangefinder that would make more sense for my style of shooting.

I'll take that into account next time I load up some 110 film.

ciniframe · Dec 4, 2019

The aperture affecting resolution, especially on a 10x14mm negative is more theoretical than real. Film grain and amount of enlargement, 12X for a 5X7 print, has the most effect in my experience.
The 15mm f3.5 fixed aperture on the Minox 8x11 is optimized for that one opening, and the Minox film plane is curved to help edge to edge sharpness also.
Unfortunately the 2.5M fixed focus of the Minolta 16 II is it’s biggest limit to sharp pictures beyond 10-12ft at 2.8 to 5.6.
For that camera the ‘0’ lens is really handy, it’s a -.25 diopter that brings focus out to 10M, close enough to infinity as makes no practical difference.

Cholentpot · Dec 4, 2019

ciniframe said:
The aperture affecting resolution, especially on a 10x14mm negative is more theoretical than real. Film grain and amount of enlargement, 12X for a 5X7 print, has the most effect in my experience.
The 15mm f3.5 fixed aperture on the Minox 8x11 is optimized for that one opening, and the Minox film plane is curved to help edge to edge sharpness also.
Unfortunately the 2.5M fixed focus of the Minolta 16 II is it’s biggest limit to sharp pictures beyond 10-12ft at 2.8 to 5.6.
For that camera the ‘0’ lens is really handy, it’s a -.25 diopter that brings focus out to 10M, close enough to infinity as makes no practical difference.

I hear ya, those lenses are rare as rooster teeth though.

Meyer Trioplan · Dec 30, 2019

Recognizing that I've hit this party rather late, I did find it an interesting read.

Having been in a similar scenario, I opted for two cameras - the aforementioned Minolta 16 QT based on its ability to focus, unlike the other parts of the lineup.

A somewhat more "plasticky" option in 110 is the Fujica 450 Pocket. Fixed 1/100 shutter speed, but adjustable aperture and focus down to less than a meter. Was able to pull the pin on this one (as it was simply a catch to register the frame) and it works fine with non perforated film.

Cholentpot · Dec 30, 2019

Meyer Trioplan said:
Recognizing that I've hit this party rather late, I did find it an interesting read.

Having been in a similar scenario, I opted for two cameras - the aforementioned Minolta 16 QT based on its ability to focus, unlike the other parts of the lineup.

A somewhat more "plasticky" option in 110 is the Fujica 450 Pocket. Fixed 1/100 shutter speed, but adjustable aperture and focus down to less than a meter. Was able to pull the pin on this one (as it was simply a catch to register the frame) and it works fine with non perforated film.

Nice image, I've been struggling with keeping my 16mm clean and scratch free. Seems I'm not the only one...

Meyer Trioplan · Dec 30, 2019

I've gotten a bit better, and find that true 16mm stocks seem to stay cleaner than the microfilms and slit films, but still I've found this a pretty fun endeavor to shoot various 16mm and 110 cameras.

StanMac · Dec 30, 2019

Check out the Minolta 16mm series of cameras here, http://www.submin.com/16mm/collection/minolta/

I would recommend the 16Ps. All mechanical, basically point and shoot. Back in early 70s I used the 16Ps on motorcycle trips - it was easy to use one-handed while doing the curves in the mountains.

Stan

Cholentpot · Dec 30, 2019

Meyer Trioplan said:
I've gotten a bit better, and find that true 16mm stocks seem to stay cleaner than the microfilms and slit films, but still I've found this a pretty fun endeavor to shoot various 16mm and 110 cameras.

Any true stocks you'd recommend? I'm working with the microfilm which is fine but it's really slow and very picky with development.

StanMac said:
Check out the Minolta 16mm series of cameras here, http://www.submin.com/16mm/collection/minolta/

I would recommend the 16Ps. All mechanical, basically point and shoot. Back in early 70s I used the 16Ps on motorcycle trips - it was easy to use one-handed while doing the curves in the mountains.

Stan

Guess I'm off to get one of these for the summer...

eli griggs · Dec 30, 2019

Minolta's 16-II is great and a lot of fun, I only have one cassette to share between this and the original 16, which is a fine design, but rarely sees the light of day.

What really surprises me here, is no one has figured out, how to print these on a 3-D printer and create a business on the side, making both film carrier, And Tank and Reel.

I got lucky and found a good metal reel that fits my Nikkor S. Steel tank, here I believe.

I also found and use a 25mm enlarging lens for the 16mm format, it is quite sharp, so I suppose one more avenue for a 3-D printer/business is lens holders and enlarging frames for the film.

I also suggest that attention be broaden to consider metal instead of plastics, as I am fairly certain someone here might have access to a metal 3-D printer with which a main cassette body could be made, and then use a durable plastic for the cassette top.

If anyone here tries making their own, I am more than willing to test the results.

One last suggestion for any prospective 16mm film, accessories King, Film slicers which allow single edge razors to be changed and used, in safety!

IMO.

Cholentpot · Dec 30, 2019

eli griggs said:
Minolta's 16-II is great and a lot of fun, I only have one cassette to share between this and the original 16, which is a fine design, but rarely sees the light of day.

What really surprises me here, is no one has figured out, how to print these on a 3-D printer and create a business on the side, making both film carrier, And Tank and Reel.

I got lucky and found a good metal reel that fits my Nikkor S. Steel tank, here I believe.

I also found and use a 25mm enlarging lens for the 16mm format, it is quite sharp, so I suppose one more avenue for a 3-D printer/business is lens holders and enlarging frames for the film.

I also suggest that attention be broaden to consider metal instead of plastics, as I am fairly certain someone here might have access to a metal 3-D printer with which a main cassette body could be made, and then use a durable plastic for the cassette top.

If anyone here tries making their own, I am more than willing to test the results.

One last suggestion for any prospective 16mm film, accessories King, Film slicers which allow single edge razors to be changed and used, in safety!

IMO.

Mike Rasso at the Film Photography Project dropped some hints that they were working on 3D printing cassettes.

eli griggs · Dec 30, 2019

Cholentpot said:
Mike Rasso at the Film Photography Project dropped some hints that they were working on 3D printing cassettes.

Why wait for a company to 'perhaps, produce a likely overpriced product when some one else can make these themselves, or at lease write an open code for common home printers?

IMO.

xya · Dec 30, 2019

I recently tested some 16mm and 110 gear on my compact camera website www.135compact.com . it's not finished yet, there is a little bit more to come. I would recommend the kiev 30, more focus, shutter speed and aperture choice. the lens is fine. cartridges are available. I just had a film slitter made and will try new film soon. for minolta cassettes think of buying NOS film, cheaper than empty cassettes...

ProgramPlus · Dec 30, 2019

Wow, great website. You've owned an impressive number of compact cameras. Seems like the Subclub website is not longer being supported right.

Just shot my first film with my Minolta 16 II - well actually I bought a film cassette with film expired in the 60s, but shot it and nothing turned out.
Cut some Kentmere 400 and shot it. We'll see how it turns out, but it seems a bit limiting. Tried to shoot at higher F stops to increase my depth of field and not confident in my Sunny 16 skills so it might be hit and miss. I do have the close up lenses and infinity focus lens so I might give those a try.

I'd be interested in the Minolta 16 with a meter, but it's s selenium meter right? So there's some chance that the meter is toast like a lot of older camera's meters that weren't cared for properly.

Cholentpot · Dec 30, 2019

eli griggs said:
Why wait for a company to 'perhaps, produce a likely overpriced product when some one else can make these themselves, or at lease write an open code for common home printers?

IMO.

Because investing time and energy into another skill and hobby may not be the path everyone is looking too. I find the 3D printer crowd to be a little annoying and evangelical. We don't all have the skills to immerse ourselves into another whole endeavor. I'll pay the darn 15.99 rather than buying a printer, learning how to implement code, learning the ins and outs of different mediums for printing and failing over and over until I get it just right.

No thanks.

xya said:
I recently tested some 16mm and 110 gear on my compact camera website www.135compact.com . it's not finished yet, there is a little bit more to come. I would recommend the kiev 30, more focus, shutter speed and aperture choice. the lens is fine. cartridges are available. I just had a film slitter made and will try new film soon. for minolta cassettes think of buying NOS film, cheaper than empty cassettes...

I bought a Kiev 30, it's hit or miss. Mine works after I did some work to it. The flash sync is no good and you need to make sure you really slide the thing open. The minolta feels premium when shot side by side. The Kiev lens however gives some very nostalgic looking images. Worth using it just for that.

xya · Dec 31, 2019

ProgramPlus said:
Wow, great website. You've owned an impressive number of compact cameras. Seems like the Subclub website is not longer being supported right.

thanks for the compliments. the subclub owner still makes and sells film slitters, but at least from europe the site has problems. I told him, but he didn't write back yet.

ProgramPlus said:
I'd be interested in the Minolta 16 with a meter, but it's s selenium meter right? So there's some chance that the meter is toast like a lot of older camera's meters that weren't cared for properly.

there are both: MG has selenium, often dead, and MG-S a CdS meter and bigger picture size, but both cameras are fixed focus.

Meyer Trioplan · Dec 31, 2019

VERY nice selection of smaller cams xya! I can see where I'll be diverting to throughout the morning! The first one I looked to see if you had listed was the Vivitar 742XL and sure enough it was there!

A while back, I did a roundup focused mostly on some of the best offerings of the largely scoffed at 110 format, which can be found here...
http://quirkyguywithacamera.blogspot.com/2018/04/small-format-size-big-format-results.html

I've since picked up a Kiev 303 (being as it has full manual control) in 16mm, but I've struggled to bond with it - the focus wheel, being a tiny affair with such tiny numbers as well.

xya · Dec 31, 2019

Meyer Trioplan said:
..A while back, I did a roundup focused mostly on some of the best offerings of the largely scoffed at 110 format, which can be found here...
http://quirkyguywithacamera.blogspot.com/2018/04/small-format-size-big-format-results.html...

that's the page that helped me choose the ones I tried. many thanks for the work + the list that you have done. there is the new lomo film readily in 110 cassettes waiting and a custom made film slitter from joe mc gloin from subclub. that will be fun.

Meyer Trioplan · Dec 31, 2019

You seem to have expanded upon it wonderfully! Now I'm browsing what you've put forth in return! This could get expensive!

I just recently managed to score a cheap Hanimex VXL 110 camera. Seems the K battery sits in an easily accessed flip lid in the top rather than a deep well like most Kodak and Minolta designs, so provided it works, I'm pretty confident I can do a simple wire and electrical tape workaround using standard button cells to deliver the 4.5V it needs.

Cholentpot · Dec 31, 2019

Meyer Trioplan said:
VERY nice selection of smaller cams xya! I can see where I'll be diverting to throughout the morning! The first one I looked to see if you had listed was the Vivitar 742XL and sure enough it was there!

A while back, I did a roundup focused mostly on some of the best offerings of the largely scoffed at 110 format, which can be found here...
http://quirkyguywithacamera.blogspot.com/2018/04/small-format-size-big-format-results.html

I've since picked up a Kiev 303 (being as it has full manual control) in 16mm, but I've struggled to bond with it - the focus wheel, being a tiny affair with such tiny numbers as well.

I like the look of the 303. Is it more refined than the 30?

xya · Dec 31, 2019

Cholentpot said:
I like the look of the 303. Is it more refined than the 30?

in my opinion, no. the 303 lacks the flash socket, as does the 30M. only the 30 has one. for all the rest it's basically the same camera, the 303 has more plastic instad of metal and it has the modern speeds.

eli griggs · Dec 31, 2019

Cholentpot said:
Because investing time and energy into another skill and hobby may not be the path everyone is looking too. I find the 3D printer crowd to be a little annoying and evangelical. We don't all have the skills to immerse ourselves into another whole endeavor. I'll pay the darn 15.99 rather than buying a printer, learning how to implement code, learning the ins and outs of different mediums for printing and failing over and over until I get it just right.

No thanks.

Fair enough comment.

However if you encourage those here, and elsewhere, to take a stab at the issue and come up with solutions, you will have contributed to your own need (and others) for kit, seeing there is no guarantee company-XYZ will ever be able to bring such a simple product to market.

I will go further and bring up that one or two 'gun' sites I belong to, often have a group buy of a needed bullet mold and will find a maker willing to build their special design, if they also pay for the molds to manufacture the product, the set-up time, and a first run of product to pre-paid buyers of a set number of sales.

There is no reason that Minolta 16 cassettes could be made that way, by a individual or 3-D printing company that is able and willing to put the time into doing such work, for a group sale here at Photrio.

IMO.

Cholentpot · Dec 31, 2019

Sure, just point the way and lets see if we can find someone to crank out minolta 16 cassettes.

eli griggs · Dec 31, 2019

Cholentpot said:
Sure, just point the way and lets see if we can find someone to crank out minolta 16 cassettes.

jhhjkmnbvc

I think we need to find some one with some international business acumen, so we have an experienced head representing our needs, so as to give the correct face to anyone whom we approach, rather than myself, seeing I have never set up such a deal in my life.

This person should also know the legal side of ordering product like this, and though I'm pretty sure the patent for these film canisters has run it's race, if there is a legal hurdle to leap.

If we want to bee seen as serious, e must have someone a maker will recognize and respect as a businessman/woman.

We also need to have a pair of administrators here, at Photrio, to handle gathering orders and distributing orders, once we have a minimum run made cost nailed down.

And we need to see once we have all three, volunteers, we need to see if Photrio will allow us to be centralized to this site, so no only we, but other Minolta 16 users can make orders through this site.

It would be of great help is someone here, experienced in 3-d design, for no or low compensation whom can make the nessacery measurements, with a 3-d laser scanner, and write the code that would be forwarded to the maker, and possibly made the software, for low cost to folks whom are into their own 3-D printing.

Then we need to find a company to do the printing, and delivery to our distribution point, once the payment is made and order filled.

Something which should have been the third consideration or so, we need to decide if we will go to China, or elsewhere, or, keep this project in the U.S.

Everyone here can help get this moving by asking around, here at Photrio, and other camera forums for suggestions on companies to deal with, leadership, real demand, and resources they may contribute.

I will ask the bullet mold builder if they would be interested in doing this project, but we must have a quality schematic of the cassette before realistic minimum runs and quotes are asked for, by anyone.

How can we make this a sticky post under the title, "Minolta 16 Film Cassette Group Buy!"

IMO.

ciniframe · Jan 16, 2020

Here is another thing to add to our 16mm wish list, and perhaps not that hard for a film company to implement.
And that is, offering 35mm stock in 100ft. bulk unperforated. They already have the equipment that slits down the master rolls to 35mm then the film goes through a step where the perfs are punched. Well, just skip that step and spool into bulk rolls. Then we could slit 2 16mm from 35 without much waste. Ilford does offer their Delta 3200 in non-perfed 100ft. bulk rolls but the minimum special order is 25 rolls. But why can’t they offer the same in Delta 100 and 400?
That would not be as complicated as adjusting/designing cutters to cut down to 16mm with associated requirements for packaging.
Even if they had to offer it in minimum of 25 bulk rolls if enough subminiature photographers got together they could order enough for minimum production batches.
You can easily get 60+ Minolta 16-20 exposure rolls from 100 feet of film and with 35mm slit into two 16mm that would double to 120+ rolls.

About 3D printing cassettes. All the 3D printed items I’ve purchased seem quite rough in texture. And the original cassette is very thin. So, I wonder if it would even be possible.
Another thought. I’m not sure the Minolta carts need the ‘bridge’ part that spans between the feed and take up spools. For years this ‘never through anything away’ guy had a Minolta cassette with a broken bridge. So one day I figured, why not and removed the bridge entirely and loaded it with film and put it into the 16II. Seems to work fine. Will let everyone know when I develop the film.
I think that molding the Minolta style carts in two parts would be simpler molds. A feed and take-up cassette would also be easier to load, just load the feed sections, then attach to the take-up cassette part later in room light. That way only two pieces in the changing bag or darkroom table to keep track of.

summicron1 · Jan 16, 2020

The bridge probably is not critical, which is good because it is easily broken. There are folks who say they have shot a Minolta by just loading the film in a darkroom, taping it to the take-up spool and putting the coiled supply in the supply side, no cassette at all — a bit cumbersome but it would work I guess.

Help Choosing a Sub-Compact 16mm Camera

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