Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

[Ken Nadvornick]

Bank managers wont lend money at risk...

As a general rule one is only going to promise to pay for money later when one is short of money now. Given the nature of a promise, then bank managers can ONLY lend money at risk. There is no other option, and they could not be in business otherwise.

Risk is not a binary condition. It's a continuum and thus simply a question of degree.

Ken

 

[FILM Ferrania]

However: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwuy4hHO3YQ

I sat eagerly in front of my television the night that MTV debuted. I've loved this song ever since.

The video, well... I don't know that it has held up so well. But the song is a Great Song.

The problem is that radio is hanging tough even today. And if you include radio-ish things like podcasts, it's doing pretty well indeed.

But MTV doesn't really have all that much to do with music anymore, not to mention music videos... And although plenty of folks are making music videos, no one thinks a music video is going to break a song like they did in the MTV heyday.

So video didn't really kill the radio star, either...

 

[Ektagraphic]

Pencils did not kill the fountain pen, as it was theorized at the time.
Radio did not kill the theater.
TV did not kill movies.
Photoshop did not kill paint, canvas, brushes, etc.
Despite many attempts, nothing has killed vinyl records.
Tablets have not killed anything they were predicted to kill - from pencils and paper, to books and magazines, to gaming consoles and TVs.

Amen to this!!

 

[toyotadesigner]

We're feeling pretty good about our chances.

Good to read!

Why don't you ask Kodak for a license to produce - let's say - Ektachrom 100 film for 135, 120, 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 cameras? It could be that you also could get the productions machines for the material. Or you might ask Fuji for a license to produce Astia 100. Fuji Provia 100F is already sold under the Agfa label, which means Fuji produces for Agfa and Agfa sells the film cheaper than Fuji film shops (at least in Germany).

I could imagine that paying for a license would be more effective than investing millions in research and development.

 

[pdeeh]

If only it were that simple.

They've got their work cut out doing what they're doing without trying to make other people's formulas and run other people's machines.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Good to read!

Why don't you ask Kodak for a license to produce - let's say - Ektachrom 100 film for 135, 120, 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 cameras? It could be that you also could get the productions machines for the material. Or you might ask Fuji for a license to produce Astia 100. Fuji Provia 100F is already sold under the Agfa label, which means Fuji produces for Agfa and Agfa sells the film cheaper than Fuji film shops (at least in Germany).

I could imagine that paying for a license would be more effective than investing millions in research and development.

You are daydreaming!
It would be very complex and complicated to replicate a film from another manufacturer even if the same machines were used.
They would never be the same
Kodak made Tri-X in the US and in the UK. The UK version was slightly different, even though it was the same label and same film name.

Agfaphoto CT Precisa 100 isn't Fuji Provia F. You got that wrong.
The Agfaphoto film is made by Fuji using an OLDER formula of Provia 100 (no F there). That's why it is cheaper.

 

[Nzoomed]

Good to read!

Why don't you ask Kodak for a license to produce - let's say - Ektachrom 100 film for 135, 120, 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 cameras? It could be that you also could get the productions machines for the material. Or you might ask Fuji for a license to produce Astia 100. Fuji Provia 100F is already sold under the Agfa label, which means Fuji produces for Agfa and Agfa sells the film cheaper than Fuji film shops (at least in Germany).

I could imagine that paying for a license would be more effective than investing millions in research and development.

Its always possible and im not against if the idea if kodak were open to it.
But there was nothing wrong with any of the modern Ferrania film stocks and their Scotch chrome reversal film was a great alternative to e100g with great results if you check out flickr. Also Solaris was a great negative stock, hopefully we will see that reintroduced too

 

[ME Super]

My comment was on the text...



Bank managers wont lend money at risk, they are more prone to confiscate your umberella on a rainy day.

Agfa's factory equipment was sold off for 'instant' cash. After Agfa sold the factory cheap as a 'going' concern.

Kodak have been an outstanding example of ineffectual US management. They are still making lots of money from 'Legacy' products. They are using the money to fund new developments. They have hicked the price of the product I might have bought.

Fiji only has one mono film left.

If Ferrania needed more money e.g. for a 400 ISO film 'reengineer' it is another kickstart, to be fair this is the easy way. 'Bit easier to raise funds' no sorry no sale.

I apologize my point was not clear.

My point when saying that things should get a bit easier R&D wise once they have film for sale was because of increased revenue. Right now, do I really want more than one or two Film Ferrania T-shirts? Probably not. Ferrania film, however, is likely to be a different story. Once I've purchased and shot some Ferrania film, if I like the results (which is likely given what I've seen on Flickr and the like that was shot with the latest versions Scotch Chrome), I'll be buying more. Film is a consumable product in a way that T-shirts are not, which means repeat sales. Right now, I can't purchase the re-engineered Ferrania E-6 product, because it's not yet available. Right now, Ferrania's revenue from film sales is zero. Once they're up and running, their revenue from film sales is likely to be higher, and with higher revenues comes increased chances of profitability. The more profitable they are, the more likely we are to see additional Ferrania film products, and the more likely they are to do upgrades to their factory, and so on.

I agree with Xmas about the idea of using kickstarter for an ISO 400 re-engineer. That's a great plan. You pay no interest with Kickstarter. Sure, you may have to promise the contributors some rewards, but once they are delivered you've essentially "paid back the loan."

 

[europanorama]

I didnt think the impossible project used negative films? All that instant film is a positive image is it not?

Well its good to see another company making colour film anyway!
I hope they will be able to continue producing AGFA emulsions if AGFA in Belgium ever closes.

Agfa Mortsel will never be closed. Nato/Otan and the european union is wisely keeping them alive! Cheers to Michel Schots-hope he is ok and many thanks for the huge amount of 70mm-testfilms for panoramic use. They will soon be revived. Was busy with 3dstereo-digital the last years and with Computer the other time.

 

[europanorama]

Hardly E-6-rather C-41

I think the initial set of films they want to release, the 100 speed, the 400 speed, and the 800/3200 pushable film are what should come first. They've got good heads on their shoulders and are filling in the gaps in the market with this first set of plans. The 100 speed film obviously comes first, then work their way towards the higher speeds. If they decide the 800/3200 is not feasible, that's okay as long as they can bring back a 400 speed E-6 emulsion. All the rest of the talk in this thread about various things like a 640T film, or a color IR film, IMHO are nice-to-haves (I think I was one of the ones that brought up a 640T film, and for sure I mentioned color IR). First and foremost, we want Film Ferrania to be a healthy film company that can produce color (E-6/C-41) films, and it looks like they're well on their way.

Lets be realistic. There will be no E-6-future. Why? for projection? Scanning is difficult. and no labs to develop. who has jobo-processors and is shooting E-6? very few people.
The future lies in non-masked C-41 like agfa-avicolor is offering in their X-100 and x400-only 70mm, 126mm and 240mm. pity they dont offer longroll 120/220. yes i can cut down. but better getting such longrolls and adding paper myself. btw: one could join 2x120 to get oversized 220 leading to around 29 images 6x6.

 

[Photo Engineer]

And non-masked color will set color film back 100 years!

PE

 

[europanorama]

Digibase 200 IS Avicolor X100

AGFA do
This is sold as Digibase CN200

It seems avicolor x100 is a bit more sensitive than iso 100. i have read those 200iso would be a bit underexposed.
Agfa should also offer us a longroll 120-version so we could add paper for 120/220. I will cut down 70mm meanwhile. Where is Avicolor available outside CH?

 

[europanorama]

New thread needed: Filmtypes, Producers and Sale-sources

Not sure that would be one that Dave would be able to answer clearly. While the folks here at APUG are great at pulling clues to see where products really come from, and we are great at sharing that knowledge, the norm in the industry is to have non-disclosure from day one.

WE know that OLD ferrania was a major supplier of both film and services. Besides all the private label film ADOX.de mentioned in a post that one of the coatings was "all slit to 35mm as we thought that ferrania was closing down for good" which implies that OLD ferrania did the slitting for them.

Last few batches of EDU.Ultra have come in cassettes that are identical to the last few batches of Ferrania colour negative, but that may have been OLD ferrania trying to maximize the value of what had become dead stock. The fact that EDU.ultra is now advertised as NOT having DX coding May be the proff of that theory as the stock of those cassettes has not gone. FOMA does not even acknowledge that they make EDU.Ultra. (other than the FOMApa data sheet that says the edge print may say FOMAPAN or ULTRA)

While it does not take rocket science to see for example that the NEW APX comes in the same cans, and boxes cut to teh same shape as Harmon films, thus implying that Harman are the folks that packaged them, We will never hear that from Simon Galley. AND their is only hints to figure out where that film was coated. It may have just as well been coated at one of the three known coating lines in Germany for example. (not sure if the smallest of those is actually running yet)

Someone with a lot of knowledge should start a new thread, maybe in Sticky-section for an overview of all filmtypes, origin of make and sale-locations. sections for 35mm 120/220 and 70mm and the other sizes seperated not a mix of all sizes.

 

[europanorama]

Old film processed- There is a project-lab

Most people keep their kodachrome in the freezer, and besides ive shot old kodachrome super8 that was long expired and not cold stored, and it shot fine, perhaps a little faded on one of the real old rolls from the 70's but this is not an issue.
Remember how Dwaynes received thousands of rolls from a railway photographer that had been unprocessed for many years?

I dont think the chemicals are too difficult to source, and i think its entirely feasible to get the k-lab working.
I have enough computer and electronics knowledge to help, but i live on the other side of the world. Im sure there are others there who can help get it working.
Hopefully we will hear from him again, last i heard, he was working on building his home (and presumably the room for the k-lab lol)

On dpreview maybe also here there was a report about a lab developping old exposed film of any kind.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Someone with a lot of knowledge should start a new thread, maybe in Sticky-section for an overview of all filmtypes, origin of make and sale-locations. sections for 35mm 120/220 and 70mm and the other sizes seperated not a mix of all sizes.

We have already had many threads on that. The paper for 220 is hard to manufacture and Ilford cannot get it. Next will come on how to make Kodachrome in an abandoned barn ignoring the may problems get it processed.

 

[europanorama]

We will see...

In my experience, Agfa color films did not keep well even when frozen.

PE

... when i will unfroze and expose old agfa avicolor n400, h100.
My experience using outdated kodak 400 films: expose at 200 and overdevelop a bit 15% if scenery is contrasty. Dream HDR-panoramas rotapancam used. New film will never handle that. Will publish details also about prefogging to cut contrast when time is ripe.

 

[europanorama]

Orwo N74 plus 400 iso....

OK Dave, so it is exactly opposite to what I had pictured, the same copater with a bigger drying area, so you would be able to run the machine faster and still get the web to dry by the time it reaches the wind-up machine at the far end. with the whole thing being designed for a wider (but not too wide) coating head. say 2 or three feet. (and carefully figured so that you can slit what the Film base machine spits out efficiently before it is sent to the coating department.)

Sorry for all the speculation, in the last couple of years, with all the changes in the industry a lot of use have been peppering the Kodak Retirees in our midst (and the long suffering Mr. Galley) with questions intended to understand the process by which little cartridges and paper rolls mysteriously appear containing plastic with magical properties.

many of us also have little items taht we miss, like one B&W film company has apparently become unable to obtain DX coded empty cartridges, while another factory has spent about what you raised in the kickstarter just to set themselves up to make that item. SO there is a bit of "back of Mind" studying what you are up to in the hopes that your small agile factory will be able to fill that sort of gap.

Heck some days we even dream that you will be offering us a chance once a year to order 127 or 126 or 116/616 fomapan or FP4 or N74 or porta {OR even Ferraniacolor E6!}made by the firms in question, but spooled and packaged on a pre-order basis under a marketing agreement licence by FILMferania taking advantage of your unique ability to grab the very obsolete antique machinery that would make it possible for the metal value.

....http://www.orwona.com/brands/ORWO.html
also 100 iso UN54

and on the other german movie-site here
http://www.wittner-kinotechnik.de/katalog/04_filmm/35_filmm.php

 

[MattKing]

And non-masked color will set color film back 100 years!

PE

Not to mention that non-masked negative film would be no easier to scan than masked negative film.

Some people seem to forget that the colours are reversed in colour negative films.

 

[europanorama]

My freezer is set far below normal household levels. Agfacolor neg. went fast!

PE

agfacolor 100(dont know if the right name, the contrasty one) was afga avicolor h100. has very special effect to reproduce greens and overcome haze. no wonder its an avi-film. uv-filter built-in. good push and pull.

 

[europanorama]

Why E6-Chemicals?Tetenal has them-who else?

Hello Dave,

I apologize if this has been answered before but I understand that it's Ferrania's long term plan to produce E6 chemistry.

At this moment my local lab has been forced to shut down E6 processing because their machine was configured for a 7 stage development process. Chemistry for such a process is unavailable I'm told and that only 3 stage kits remain and these machines can't be reconfigured for a 3 stage process.

We have small local outfits that are popping up to handle some E6 but it's not like it was prior to the discontinuation of these 7 stage kits.

Will Ferrania be producing both 7 stage chemistry for commercial applications as well as 3 stage kits for home development?

Thank you

Tetenal has E6-chemical. 3 bath only?

 

[europanorama]

Diagram ontop of...

Sorry, I dont quite understand what you mean.

I would have to see a visual diagram to fully understand.

Those photos clearly show the film base making contact on the rollers.
Unless you are referring to the back of the film which is not yet coated? That would not be an issue if that was the case, since there is no emulsion on the other side to be disturbed (assuming the anti halation backing is coated on a seperate run), but are you saying each roller alternates with an undercut roller? That would make sense, but i dont see that from the photos.

As far as air bearings goes, do some rollers have these built into them?

.. the link-site! Open your eyes an mind.

 

[europanorama]

No hard homeprocessing E6...

Hi

But if you are running a lab you can scratch mix E6, [and the raw chemicals are still available (although nearest supplier is Germany for me)].

You only need a micro balance costing about 40 Euro, and water...

It is hard home processing E6 but I've done it in past...

Noel

..if you have a Jobo rotatory machine. And its really easy getting film(undried) within 30 min. There is also an easy-solution to mount 70mm film in 2500-type-reels without the need of special 2517-reel(70mm-220-lenght 172cm)
and its also easy push-processing.

 

[europanorama]

I am finally through pages 1-25, then 75 to the end.

That were long and mostly boring hours going through mostly unnecessary posts with the culmination some mentioning the cameras they will use and which ferrania cam was produced...Pls think before posting anything here. and pls stop thanking.
here is the timeline:
Dead Link Removed
i also dont believe we will see the new machine ready producing film before 1 year. Why bother, the world will not go under.
He said there will be two colorlines, it must be 35 and 120. i only hope they will offer bulk. no need for special printing. offer it in neutral package. Its good to think about E6 if there is a shortage but C41 is more demanded. What are the supporters wishes?

 

[AgX]

Not to mention that non-masked negative film would be no easier to scan than masked negative film.

One argument when introducing unmasked colour films was just that it was better to scan due to reduced D-max.

 

[AgX]

And non-masked color will set color film back 100 years!

The first film with integrated colour masking was introduced in 1948.

Furthermore it has been stated that image-dye deficencies can be coped by other means than masking too. Though I can't comment on that.