Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

[flavio81]

(...) ave had to have known that starting an open questions thread like this would bring out all of the bizarre wish list products that only had a market of one. Especially here on APUG. Color infrared? Right out of the gate? Really?
(...) I would not have contributed to the KS project if I felt they could be so easily pulled off the critical path by distractions. They won't. That's why I gave them my money.

+1

You are right. Let's just wait until they get their ISO 100 E6 film fine tuned and easy to manufacture at a reasonable cost.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Oh and CF are NOT "required." What is required is a certain level of energy efficiency and they manufacturers are already bring out other technology bulbs, including halogens, that meet the requirements.

I hate CFLs and will be glad to rid my house of all of them as alternatives become available.

I've pretty much replaced them with daylight-balanced LEDs, which blend with daylight on film just fine. The initial cost is still high, but they should last longer than CFLs, and the energy use and heat output are smaller. Another plus that I realized when moving earlier this year is that you can also transport them to a new house safely, since they are made of plastic and metal. Movers tend not to like to move glass bulbs, if they can avoid it, because they get all over everything, if they shatter.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

I would have no problem if Ferrania was open to special order contracting for smallish runs of unusual products for a customer like Lomography. I expect that they are the sort of market where false colour IR for pictorial use would be very successful .

It all depends on how flexible their production facilities/procedures are.

It would be a different thing if people were asking for the high reliability/scientific tool EIR that Kodak made for purposes other than pictorial use.

False color IR for pictorial use? Really?

Call me crazy, but I think the critical path currently runs only through creating a smallish run of high-quality 100-speed E-6 daylight transparency film in four formats by next April 15, while managing to save whatever remaining film production tooling and machinery is necessary before it's destroyed.

Anything beyond that is blatant scope-creep.

And engineers hate that for the same reasons that soon-to-be new mothers suffering though horribly painful contractions hate it when their husbands excitedly proclaim "Let's have another!"

Ken

 

[Roger Cole]

I've pretty much replaced them with daylight-balanced LEDs, which blend with daylight on film just fine. The initial cost is still high, but they should last longer than CFLs, and the energy use and heat output are smaller. Another plus that I realized when moving earlier this year is that you can also transport them to a new house safely, since they are made of plastic and metal. Movers tend not to like to move glass bulbs, if they can avoid it, because they get all over everything, if they shatter.

I've heard the life isn't always what it should be, namely that, yes, the LEDs last that long but the driver circuits often conk out. I have no direct experience with them but consider them superior in not flicking, not having to warm up to reach full brightness, not containing mercury, generally being dimmable etc.

Interesting about the color. I've been using GE Reveal Tungsten bulbs, and they now have them in Halogen, not so much for photography as I just like the look better. I'll have to try the LEDs with daylight color film.

 

[Roger Cole]

I agree (mostly) about not getting sidetracked. But while I'd like to see another alternative in 100 E6, because, well "another film, yay!" the 400 speed is needed more, IMHO, because there isn't one on the market anymore. THAT I am eager for. 800/3200 I'd have never thought of if they hadn't said they planned it, and I'd like it but all things in their time. I'll be happy with 400.

False color IR, well...have a digi modified if you really want to do that. Heresy, but the easiest and probably best path.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I would not have contributed to the KS project if I felt they could be so easily pulled off the critical path by distractions. They won't. That's why I gave them my money.

Well said, Ken. We must approach this thing one step at a time and we already have a steep hill to climb just to begin regular small-batch production - along with establishing logistics, marketing, sales, distribution, fulfillment, customer service, etc.

We are wide-eyed with ambition, and yet very aware of the hard facts of reality.

With that said, I do not mind all the requests and speculations and commentary (although I hope you'll forgive me for not answering every single post). In fact, we need this kind of granular input for the long term. A market of one today could be a market in the thousands in a few years - especially if we are able to reverse the negativity and hopelessness in the analog world and attract some new blood. Or at least get some fence-sitters to play on our side of the yard.

 

[Xmas]

I agree (mostly) about not getting sidetracked. But while I'd like to see another alternative in 100 E6, because, well "another film, yay!" the 400 speed is needed more, IMHO, because there isn't one on the market anymore. THAT I am eager for. 800/3200 I'd have never thought of if they hadn't said they planned it, and I'd like it but all things in their time. I'll be happy with 400.

False color IR, well...have a digi modified if you really want to do that. Heresy, but the easiest and probably best path.

HiRoger

But by next year you may need 100 ISO a little bit more.

Noel
PS An m8 will do 'purple' blacks...

 

[pbromaghin]

Focus...

Focus...

 

[MattKing]

I don't have any personal desire for false colour IR. What I was trying to indicate, with what might possibly be a poor example, was that it would be good if Ferrania could emulate Harman and, apparently, Inoviscoat, and be available for contract manufacture of a wide variety of products.
I expect that the revenue earned by non-Ilford or Kentmere products goes a long way toward keeping Harman healthy, and therefor Ilford products available to us.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

And engineers hate that for the same reasons that soon-to-be new mothers suffering though horribly painful contractions hate it when their husbands excitedly proclaim "Let's have another!"

Again - well said!

Nicola Baldini, our founder, is a software engineer by training and past experience. Engineers' brains are not as prone to rampant dreaming and speculation as, say, my own creative brain. Marco Pagni, the co-founder, and the rest of the team are all engineers, scientists, technicians... Not the sort who typically bite off more than they can chew. Everything must be carefully planned and executed, as well as being repeatable, process-driven, quantifiable.

They are completely focused on giving birth to our "Kickstarter Baby" - and that is all.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Not the sort who typically bite off more than they can chew. Everything must be carefully planned and executed, as well as being repeatable, process-driven, quantifiable.

One good working definition of Engineering is that it's the art and science of risk mitigation, not risk augmentation...



Ken

 

[TheToadMen]

One good working definition of Engineering is that it's the art and science of risk mitigation, not risk augmentation...



Ken

Maybe this will help?

 

[Nzoomed]

Another question Dave,
Do you anticipate that with the current coater you will be able to meet the future needs of the film market if it increases?
I know you said its a good problem to have if you need to expand into other buildings, but i was just wondering if you have considered saving the coating heads from big boy incase the day comes that these may be needed?
Or is it not possible to modify such equipment for lower production?

From what i understand, its basically the drying tunnel that you need out of big boy.
I would hate to see valuable equipment gone forever if the day ever came that you needed it i guess.
But if you are confident you have everything you need, then i have trust you guys know what you are doing.

 

[Henning Serger]

Does anyone know who makes the stuff for lomography?

It is made by InovisCoat in Germany: http://www.inoviscoat.de/
InovisCoat is run by former Agfa engineers from the German Agfa factory in Leverkusen.
They bought emulsion making and coating machinery from the closed Leverkusen factory, scaled it down, modernised it, and started operation in 2009.
They are producing e.g. colour films, BW film, BW paper for their several cooperation partners.
Here in this video (from min. 1 to min. 2:40) you can see parts of their production:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw4rttFGHiM

Running a "right-sized" factory for colour and BW photo materials is not a new idea......

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

In 120, grain size is less of an issue, but projectors and mounts are much more expensive for 6x4.5, 6x6, and 6x7.

Very good medium format projectors from e.g. Rollei or Kindermann are extremely cheap on the used market.
Cheaper than good medium format cameras.
Now is the right time to buy one, before the prices increase again due to stronger demand.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[RattyMouse]

It is made by InovisCoat in Germany: http://www.inoviscoat.de/
InovisCoat is run by former Agfa engineers from the German Agfa factory in Leverkusen.
They bought emulsion making and coating machinery from the closed Leverkusen factory, scaled it down, modernised it, and started operation in 2009.
They are producing e.g. colour films, BW film, BW paper for their several cooperation partners.
Here in this video (from min. 1 to min. 2:40) you can see parts of their production:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw4rttFGHiM

Running a "right-sized" factory for colour and BW photo materials is not a new idea......

Best regards,
Henning

Are they coating old Agfa formulations? If not, whose then?

 

[Peter de Groot]

Inoviscoat made or are still making the negative materials for Impossible.

 

[Henning Serger]

Are they coating old Agfa formulations? If not, whose then?

Some products are based on Agfa formulations.
Other products are new.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Inoviscoat made or are still making the negative materials for Impossible.

They are making the negative materials for Impossible, and both the negative film base for the BW and the colour Impossible films.
Furthermore they are involved in the whole R&D of Impossible.
That is all official and published information by Impossible.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Nzoomed]

They are making the negative materials for Impossible, and both the negative film base for the BW and the colour Impossible films.
Furthermore they are involved in the whole R&D of Impossible.
That is all official and published information by Impossible.

Best regards,
Henning

I didnt think the impossible project used negative films? All that instant film is a positive image is it not?

Well its good to see another company making colour film anyway!
I hope they will be able to continue producing AGFA emulsions if AGFA in Belgium ever closes.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

I didnt think the impossible project used negative films? All that instant film is a positive image is it not?

Well its good to see another company making colour film anyway!
I hope they will be able to continue producing AGFA emulsions if AGFA in Belgium ever closes.

The Impossible integral film packs still need a negative of some sort.

The "new" company is already 5 years old and as Henning said is an off-shot of the former Leverkusen plant.
It has been said InovisCoat aren't particularly interested in the consumer photo market: that was something they did when they were "part" of Agfaphoto and rather don't want to come back to it. They are happy to do contract coatings though. I.e. you pay the money, they do the film for you. That's the way they did for Lomography and Adox.
The name of the company should be self evident: it is about maximizing potential in all coating fields, not just photography.
That's the reason why you see "boutique" films flourishing, i.e. small batches of specific films and not exactly to be repeated again. See the cases of the Lomo Purple and Adox Colour Explosion.

But, all of this is Off Topic for this thread. Sorry for it!

Still that leads me to a "request" to Dave and Film Ferrania: please, whatever films you do, please stick with them, improve them, just no new "boutique" films to spring every year, not to be seen again.
It takes time for a photographer to learn how to work with a new film and when one becomes mastered and a favourite, one wants to stick to it.
See the case of Ilford films: they've kept the same films that photographers have known for years. Thanks!

 

[cmacd123]

Some of the Lomograohy films strike me as failed experiments someone did while trying to perfect a film, that have then been packaged for sale. {Although knowing those folks thay may have been made deliberately.}

 

[Dr Croubie]

So here's something that hasn't been mentioned yet (as far as I've read, I may have missed it): Reciprocity.
As in, the new E6 100 film, what is the reciprocity-failure like? Not just in seconds/stops, but more importantly in colour, does it get a colour-cast on it the longer it is exposed?
AFAIK there are no real good E6 films left for long exposures, they all go some weird colour (please tell me if I'm wrong, I'd love to know one that isn't). If one were released (either this 100 or the next 200/400/800 whatever) that could be used for minutes or even hours on end and retain the same colour, that'd be great for setting up for star-trails etc.

 

[StoneNYC]

So here's something that hasn't been mentioned yet (as far as I've read, I may have missed it): Reciprocity.
As in, the new E6 100 film, what is the reciprocity-failure like? Not just in seconds/stops, but more importantly in colour, does it get a colour-cast on it the longer it is exposed?
AFAIK there are no real good E6 films left for long exposures, they all go some weird colour (please tell me if I'm wrong, I'd love to know one that isn't). If one were released (either this 100 or the next 200/400/800 whatever) that could be used for minutes or even hours on end and retain the same colour, that'd be great for setting up for star-trails etc.

Both Provia100f and Velvia100 from fuji can go 2 minutes before exposure compensation is needed. As far as color temperature adjustment, all color films need some kind of color filter for long exposures AFAIK?

I'm glad you brought this up, reciprocity with speed is important and so is consistent color temperature/tone.

FILMferrania please take note of the above.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

So here's something that hasn't been mentioned yet (as far as I've read, I may have missed it): Reciprocity.
As in, the new E6 100 film, what is the reciprocity-failure like? Not just in seconds/stops, but more importantly in colour, does it get a colour-cast on it the longer it is exposed?
AFAIK there are no real good E6 films left for long exposures, they all go some weird colour (please tell me if I'm wrong, I'd love to know one that isn't). If one were released (either this 100 or the next 200/400/800 whatever) that could be used for minutes or even hours on end and retain the same colour, that'd be great for setting up for star-trails etc.

The old Scotch Chrome 100 data sheet is here: Dead Link Removed

Once we make the actual film and test it properly in lab and real world situations, we will of course publish all relevant info in our own data sheets.
Until then, you can assume that the new film will be somewhat similar to what you see in the old data sheet.