Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania
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Yes i agree with you here, it very well may be a "nice" film to have for some photographers, but there are many other formats that are preferable to start with, i would like to see 110 and 126 before APS, although there are alot of APS cameras that currently cant be used at present, but i dont think the demand for APS film will ever be as high as that of films such as 127, 126 and even 110.
Speaking of defunt formats, whats the story with disc film?
Did Ferrania ever produce it?
It would be interesting to play around with in any old cameras, but this was not a very popular format from what i understand, as it had an extremely small frame size.
Would be interested to know if anyone would like to shoot this again!
Not that im asking you to ever produce this!
lol Just curious if you had the conversion equipment.
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Sorry Dave. It's the downside of the Internet...
Ken
Ken
Not the least of which is that lack of wide acceptance and virtually no market demand.
OP
OP
This is a good point you raise.
A big part of the consideration we need to make about which films to manufacture is related to the available equipment in the used market. Producers of new film cameras are very very few... But there are hundreds of millions of cameras already out there, waiting to be used again.
My experience is that MOST of the working cameras in the world are either purely mechanical (and thus repairable), or have very minimal electronics. Speaking very generally, the more electronics present in a vintage camera, the less likely it is to be working - primarily due to corrosion of the electronics by old batteries or even just atmospheric/storage conditions.
It was Polaroid's genius to put the battery in the film pack when they introduced SX-70. No Polaroid cameras released after the SX-70 became corroded by old batteries. This fact paved the way for The Impossible Project, in the early days, to focus on making film for the old cameras without having to make the massive investment to create a new one.
Similarly, the more electronics, the more likely the camera was targeted to the mass market consumer - a segment that has vanished for the most part. Disc and APS formats were mass-market formats. Disc cameras never aspired to be anything but cheap and although I'm sure a few still work, I'd guess that most of them are long vanished into landfill. APS cameras were a bit more robust, but most were mass-produced at the lowest possible cost and are not all that desirable by the bulk of modern users. AND they tended to rely heavily on electronics.
So even though we're committed to eventually producing several "odd" formats - we have to consider, to some degree, the cameras (and thus, the formats) MOST people will be able to use well into the future.
For example, we already know that 127 film has a great base of folks who love their 4x4 Rollei's and Yashica's - take care of them and use them regularly. Rollei, Zeiss and even Kodak made great 126 camera as well - and while they're not all purely mechanical, they were all built to last.
This is all just to say that we have to keep things like this in mind as we move forward. We have to use our limited resources very wisely...
OP
OP
Thanks
As for quality APS cameras, the Nikon Pronea comes to mind. There were a number of good high quality APS cameras on the market that are out of film!
PE
PE
Yes the Canon EOS iX which accepts all canon EF lenses (yes you could throw a 800mm or 1200mm canon lens in front of some APX/APS film!!!! Haha) which was nice, I JUST sold mine to a guy, then got 8 new rolls from a friend, ended up selling them to the guy I sold the camera for $20, such is life, I really liked the IDEA of the format, the thing they screwed up on ROYALLY was the format they chose IMO ... The market who cared most about the difference between outside 100 speed film and inside 400 speed and being able to switch quickly... Were Pro's... And semi-pro's... They should have thus made the film in 35mm film sized instead of 16mm/110 size film... That's I think where they lost the appeal... Pro's talked down about it, semi-pro's talked doesn't to it, so then the consumers heard that and listened to those negative views and no one used it...
Such is life, 35mm is good enough, and 127 is better
The format chosen was done so to match the format of the most common digital sensors of that time so that printing would be similar between the two, digital and APS.
PE
PE
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Hello to all!
I live in Italy, just some miles away from Ferrania plant... anyway, I ask you in USA...
I am surprised there´s no manufacturer in the world still making super 8 sound cartridges.
Would there be any issue for Ferrania?
Thanks, a lot and sorry I couldn´t back this project... I have discovered it just yesterday.
How to preorder the first batch now?
Thanks,
Maurizio
I live in Italy, just some miles away from Ferrania plant... anyway, I ask you in USA...
I am surprised there´s no manufacturer in the world still making super 8 sound cartridges.
Would there be any issue for Ferrania?
Thanks, a lot and sorry I couldn´t back this project... I have discovered it just yesterday.
How to preorder the first batch now?
Thanks,
Maurizio
When the APS format came out the general action in the photo community was that it was unnecessary. It was a Solution Without A Problem. Users of SLRs and P&S cameras had settled on 35mm which offered everything people wanted with the exception of dead-easy, instamatic type film loading - but many P&S cameras were pretty easy to load and came about as close on instant film loading that you could get. Today, you can find many of these 35mm P&S cameras around for a few dollars. Many were outstanding and they still are.
APS was doomed because digital was following right on the horizon.
As far as new film cameras being available (outside of a select few) it will be a while but if the "film is back resurgence" that is supposedly taking place is real, some new models will start to appear. After all, Lomography has just started with a new instant camera for TIP film. At least I get enough SPAM email about such a thing.
When new models appear, I feel they will be along the lines of the Fuji x100. Electronic "rangefinder" type packages, like a cheaper electronic Leica. They'll use whatever parts are being made for full-frame digital, or maybe just use and APS-C format on 35mm, IDK. They won't be cheap, they'll be marketed to those that have the money to indulge in something nice that stands apart from the crowd.
Cheaper models would require a mass-market, which is unlikely to appear in this world of phone cameras. And, much as I hate to admit it, the camera in my iPhone 6 is outstanding and would be a very difficult camera to replace. I could easily live with just it if I had to. Thankfully, with the efforts of people like Film Ferrania I should not have to.
APS was doomed because digital was following right on the horizon.
As far as new film cameras being available (outside of a select few) it will be a while but if the "film is back resurgence" that is supposedly taking place is real, some new models will start to appear. After all, Lomography has just started with a new instant camera for TIP film. At least I get enough SPAM email about such a thing.
When new models appear, I feel they will be along the lines of the Fuji x100. Electronic "rangefinder" type packages, like a cheaper electronic Leica. They'll use whatever parts are being made for full-frame digital, or maybe just use and APS-C format on 35mm, IDK. They won't be cheap, they'll be marketed to those that have the money to indulge in something nice that stands apart from the crowd.
Cheaper models would require a mass-market, which is unlikely to appear in this world of phone cameras. And, much as I hate to admit it, the camera in my iPhone 6 is outstanding and would be a very difficult camera to replace. I could easily live with just it if I had to. Thankfully, with the efforts of people like Film Ferrania I should not have to.
Dave
On another note, is there any possibilities of a technical update from the guys at the LRF? There are enough techno-nerds, like me, around here that I am sure would appreciate having a peek behind the curtain at what's really happening in Corrado's lab. I've seen the twitter photos which are just enough to whet the appetite. Maybe we could get a few juicy technical details about what is happening with the actual film and maybe a few test images so we could see what is going on?
-- Jason
On another note, is there any possibilities of a technical update from the guys at the LRF? There are enough techno-nerds, like me, around here that I am sure would appreciate having a peek behind the curtain at what's really happening in Corrado's lab. I've seen the twitter photos which are just enough to whet the appetite. Maybe we could get a few juicy technical details about what is happening with the actual film and maybe a few test images so we could see what is going on?
-- Jason
APS was a fine example of a product designed by a committee. Everyone who has ever worked behind a camera counter has cringed at seeing a customer getting there greasy paw prints right on the image posrtion of a negative they wanted to reprint, so APS returned the film safely to the cartridge after processing. Then had the film lab print the number on th eback of the print.
Every film lab has on occasion had the twin check number come off a roll of film, and had to do a lot of customer care to try to match it to the owner. APS, (like Disc) put a bar code on each roll of film and the cartridge. The lab could read the bar code and print a lalel on the order form envelope, and trust that the film would have the bar code once out of the processor. Oviously any startup situation may have to come up with a way to generate unique bar codes for each roll. This was also recorded on the mag stripe so could be read even if the roll was completely fogged.
Film is hard to load, RAPID tried to make a self loading film in teh 1970s, 35mm made strides in being easy to load. 126 and 110 were preloaded in a disposable cartridge. APS kept the film all in teh cartridge and did automatic loading, but the makers of Camera that could pull that off quickly applied the same tricks to 35mm.
The slightly smaller frame, came about partly because "everyone" agreed that using a film with two rows of silly holes down the side was wasteful. all that film area had to be made, precision perforated and then was totally useless for any information storage. by making the film 24mm, (the width of 35mm film inside the perfs) and adding 126 style holes to index the frames on simple cameras, the resulting useable frame is 30.2 × 16.7mm.
the margins had can record if the shot was supposed to be cropped as panoramic etc.
My guess is the packaging line for APS is Much larger than a workable version of say the 126 line. (FF posted one picture showing teh 126 package line set up with two machines side by side, I suspect that the new configuration with only have one as the volume will never be anywhere near as high as the line was designed to meet).
Nikon and Canon did make some NICE APS cameras, I know I bought a Canon EF 18 to 55 zoom lens real cheep, and the E-bay seller mentioned in passing it came off a Canon APS SLR. (I currently have it on a canon Voldimort SLR)
Every film lab has on occasion had the twin check number come off a roll of film, and had to do a lot of customer care to try to match it to the owner. APS, (like Disc) put a bar code on each roll of film and the cartridge. The lab could read the bar code and print a lalel on the order form envelope, and trust that the film would have the bar code once out of the processor. Oviously any startup situation may have to come up with a way to generate unique bar codes for each roll. This was also recorded on the mag stripe so could be read even if the roll was completely fogged.
Film is hard to load, RAPID tried to make a self loading film in teh 1970s, 35mm made strides in being easy to load. 126 and 110 were preloaded in a disposable cartridge. APS kept the film all in teh cartridge and did automatic loading, but the makers of Camera that could pull that off quickly applied the same tricks to 35mm.
The slightly smaller frame, came about partly because "everyone" agreed that using a film with two rows of silly holes down the side was wasteful. all that film area had to be made, precision perforated and then was totally useless for any information storage. by making the film 24mm, (the width of 35mm film inside the perfs) and adding 126 style holes to index the frames on simple cameras, the resulting useable frame is 30.2 × 16.7mm.
the margins had can record if the shot was supposed to be cropped as panoramic etc.
My guess is the packaging line for APS is Much larger than a workable version of say the 126 line. (FF posted one picture showing teh 126 package line set up with two machines side by side, I suspect that the new configuration with only have one as the volume will never be anywhere near as high as the line was designed to meet).
Nikon and Canon did make some NICE APS cameras, I know I bought a Canon EF 18 to 55 zoom lens real cheep, and the E-bay seller mentioned in passing it came off a Canon APS SLR. (I currently have it on a canon Voldimort SLR)
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If Film Ferrania introduce sound super8 film, i will be first in line to buy it!
I think Kodak stopped production of sound super8 in 1997. Apparently the adhesive used to stick the sound strip on the film was toxic or something. IDK, perhaps Photo Engineer will know more about this.
The biggest hurdle would be obtaining the magnetic media to put onto the film i expect, i know that AGFA made sound strip that you could stick on the film yourself and record onto and there is lots of that available from suppliers such as Wittner. Anyway, i dont know why there would be any issues finding another adhesive that is suitable and non toxic? I think that kodak kept making magnetic sound film in 16mm for some time afterwards anyway, so dont know what the difference would be, between S8 and 16mm.
Dave, if your reading this.
Does Ferrania still have any machinery for applying the sound strips to super8 and/or 16mm?
Im guessing 3M would have made magnetic sound film, since 3M was a producer of magnetic tapes and would have been very convenient for them to have done so.
Even if you dont end up using the equipment in the medium term, it would be great if it was available to be used in the future if circumstances allowed
SOUND SUPER 8:
Kodak discontinued the Sound Super 8 film when their system for appling the sound stripe could not meet the regulations for Solvent emmisons are I head the story. They were applying a magnetic dispursion to the back of the film and allowing the solvent to evaporate and could not capture all the solvent for recovery.
FILMFerrania would have to design a stryping system that could meet the European regulations first off, and then modify their Super 8 Packing line to accept the slightly bigger cartridges. And then justify all that with demand for the number of cartridges sold. My guess is that there would be more demand for the 200 ft cartridges. But they would have to dod that market research once they get the main product out the door.
Kodak discontinued the Sound Super 8 film when their system for appling the sound stripe could not meet the regulations for Solvent emmisons are I head the story. They were applying a magnetic dispursion to the back of the film and allowing the solvent to evaporate and could not capture all the solvent for recovery.
FILMFerrania would have to design a stryping system that could meet the European regulations first off, and then modify their Super 8 Packing line to accept the slightly bigger cartridges. And then justify all that with demand for the number of cartridges sold. My guess is that there would be more demand for the 200 ft cartridges. But they would have to dod that market research once they get the main product out the door.
OP
OP
We're trying to get more details, believe me...
On some level, there isn't anything truly juicy to show at the moment and for the next few weeks. Photos of Renzo moving equipment... Corrado holding test tubes in the air to examine their color... Nice views of Big Boy before he gets demolished...
To add to this, the factory is in the middle of nowhere AND all visits must be approved and carefully scheduled. This makes it tough to get a volunteer to do the reporting...
We in the US are certainly digging, but we have to suffice with further whetting of appetites for the time being...
One of the major problems with SOUND SUPER 8 was that it was nearly impossible to edit since to sound was offset from the image
OP
OP
This is a better answer than I could have given.
Just in case, I have sent an email to ask if we will have the capability.
OP
OP
My first Off-Topic:
We're trying to build a nice database of labs who process E-6 film. Once we get a nice list going, we're going to publish it on our site.
If you've got a favorite lab that you know processes E-6, please take a minute to fill out this form: Dead Link Removed
If there is a better forum for this post, let me know...
We're trying to build a nice database of labs who process E-6 film. Once we get a nice list going, we're going to publish it on our site.
If you've got a favorite lab that you know processes E-6, please take a minute to fill out this form: Dead Link Removed
If there is a better forum for this post, let me know...
MattKing
Moderator
The forum is appropriate, but it certainly deserves its own thread.
With a title like: "Film Ferrania wants to know about the E6 lab you like to use"
If this keeps up this thread will become as large as the dreaded deleted thread.
Hey Dave,
I get it - I'm an engineer, too, as are many here. Nothing worse than being pestered for details when you are trying to get something done!
Well, we can dream right?
BTW, about how far is the factory from Milan?
-- Jason
Just for fun, since we were talking about APS, for some reason the yellow box folks in Upper NY State amazingly still have a very detailed information page on the wonders of APS.
http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/consumer/APS/redBook/aboutSystem.shtml
One other "special feature" is that as well as being magneticaly coated, the film base was a unique material, and I don't know if the typpical subsitute, (Polyester) wold even work. Well worth a read as an example of how not to design a product.
http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/consumer/APS/redBook/aboutSystem.shtml
One other "special feature" is that as well as being magneticaly coated, the film base was a unique material, and I don't know if the typpical subsitute, (Polyester) wold even work. Well worth a read as an example of how not to design a product.
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