Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[twelvetone12]

It is impressive how a half-baked badly-written article in italian was able to spur such wild speculation about secret side-projects that Ferrania might have.
I, on the other side, am convinced that Ferrania sold all its equipment to CERN so they can make a nuclear-protonic-curvature ion detector in a joint venture with INGS/INGV, tore down the LRF and now is in the sunflower seed oil business.
I think this thread has run its course.

 

[RattyMouse]

I think this thread has run its course.

Indeed, it should be locked.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I disagree.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Carestream in Windsor Colorado could make a fine film. They have the facilities and formulas.

PE

Very true!

In fact, they have a coater that was built by Ferrania and is almost an exact copy of our precision coater - only much larger, producing Agfa-standard jumbos.

We have of course been in contact with them, but unfortunately, they have not shown interest in contract coating for us. We suspect that they're pretty busy with their own business.

And in the end, even if we had them coat jumbos of P30 for us - our finishing bottleneck remains.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Indeed, it should be locked.

Sure, I'm happy to call this one done and I'll start a new thread when we have something significant to announce.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Thank you, but i´ve seen quite some jump on the "panic-train" repeating statements like "the money was for color film" or "they got over 1 mio. from the government" or "they produce x-ray-film now" - especially the last one is ridiculous. If they were producing x-ray-film right now, they´d definitely tell us as that would be an update and create them some income which would be good for the future of color film!
But the panik-train-rides don´t think about that and just repeat - which by the way, dear panic-train-riders, is how Trump got president. By spreading panik, anger, distrust and by telling lies - and now there´s an atomic war in sight, well done!
Do we really want this also to happen to this thread, to our beloved hobby?

I don´t.

If we were making x-ray film, we'd be rolling in cash... I can't tell you how many emails we've received from China asking for x-ray products...

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Exactly my point. They can coat any formula that anyone has including multilayer reversal film from Ferrania if they are asked.

PE

We asked... Maybe you have some additional advice? If so, DM or email me!!

 

[FILM Ferrania]

But how many test runs would even Ferrania need to modify an old 3M formula to work on a Kodak Machine. the lab coater that they are making the P30 on was at least designed to have some sort of scaling factors with the 3M production coaters. all the parameters that can be adjusted would need to be to make any 3M era formula at a Kodak plant, (or on a former AGFA machine, or even at Foma or Ilford. (who actually have another clone of an Agfa Machine as far as I know)

P30 can be made on nearly any coater with very little problem. The formula itself is quite simple.

But contract coating on someone else's machine is not nearly as simple as one might hope it to be.

 

[pbromaghin]

I also disagree. It has been immensely entertaining and even informative. It's the first thread I look at upon logging in. If you don't like it, just don't look at it.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

75% of the Kickstarter funding was supposed to be used for "Purchase and removal of Trixie, Walter and Big Boy".

Trixie was the machine to produce triacetate base. Walter is the equipment for making the coating and Big Boy is the actual coater.

The P30 was as I understand made on Little Boy, which is the lab scale coating machine that was available already from the beginning. They also seem to use triacetate base that also was available in storage. The capacity of these machines are stated to be 3000 rolls per week. Thus, if they had been running continuously, they would have been making around 80,000 rolls in half a year. By selling those, the revenue would have been double the Kickstarter funding.

So, this raises a few questions: Since they are not using any of thes machines they raised money for, are they even operational? Why are they not producing and selling P30 as they said they would?

The equipment we purchased IS functional, but our Kickstarter campaign did not raise enough to purchase the equipment AND install it - only to make the purchases. Raising enough for installations was not even the goal - we simply needed to save the stuff before it was demolished.
Installing the equipment carries a separate price tag. Many of the installations require modifications to the building itself (removing walls, reinforcing the floor), plus the labor of moving, rebuilding and testing the machines.

Regarding P30 - the capacity of Little Boy is far greater than 3000 rolls per week. That number was referring to the maximum capacity of our emulsions making (for now, until we can bring more of "Walter" online).
The issue regarding P30 is that our finishing partner is limited to around 1000 rolls per week, so coating 3000 rolls per week is pointless.
We have been working VERY hard on this issue over the past couple of months and we have not yet found a viable alternative.

If we are able to secure investment, it would greatly speed the process of installations and open our production bottleneck - but without significant sales on the books, we would require an investor who shares and understands our vision, and who can see a very clear path to maximize their ROI.

So far, no such investor has stepped forward. And so we proceed on our slow and steady course.

 

[Mackinaw]

......The issue regarding P30 is that our finishing partner is limited to around 1000 rolls per week, so coating 3000 rolls per week is pointless.
We have been working VERY hard on this issue over the past couple of months and we have not yet found a viable alternative.......

Dave, thanks for the update. You mention the film needs to be “finished’ after it’s coated and that your finishing partner is the bottleneck. What exactly is “finishing?”

Jim B.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Regardless of the discussions and that it seems to be an emotional subject, I would like to return to what we know and what we do not know.

From reading the available information on the Film Ferrania site, I conclude the following (as close to facts as it gets):

1. The P30 alpha was made on the R&D coater (Little Boy). The film base was triacetate that they had in store and slit into mini jumbos. The chemistry was mixed in very small batches and they eventually retrieved an 30 liter tank from storage (it is not clear if this was ever used in production). According to David Bias, all the equipment that was purchased for the Kickstarter money is still in storage and they do not have the funding to install it.

Correct.

2. The conclusion from the above is that Film Ferrania run out of money and they need to find new financing to continue their efforts. The critical question: How difficult is it to find a financer who see an upside in this project. Unless they do, it would be game over, right?

We have faced down the "Game Over" moment a couple of times already. It may yet happen, but we will keep working until then.

3. They claim to have a capacity of 3,000 rolls per week in the current setup and they claim(ed) to be in production. Thus they should have produced around 80,000 rolls after finishing the shipments from the first orders. We have not seen any of those or had any information of new problems

We have noted on a few occasions that we have a bottleneck in the finishing process that prevents us from fully utilizing our current capacity.

4. According to the Italian article, Film Ferrania is now doing R&D and production of film to detect nuclear radiation. I think it is reasonable to believe this is true, since who would make something like that up?

"Now doing" is not correct. During the downtime in 2015, while we were awaiting the government's work on the building to be finished, a portion of our team made some test materials for a customer. This is not an ongoing thing.

5. There has been no news on the website since Aug 2017

Correct - however our social media has been quite active sharing photos made by our pre-sale customers.

Announcements on Kickstarter and/or our website must be substantive and as correct as they can be. Since August, we have prepared no less than half a dozen updates only to have them become irrelevant due to the constantly changing situation in and around the factory.

These changes are often far too complex, ephemeral, and just plain-old mundane to warrant the time necessary to summarize them into a post.

Now an opinion: There is something going on that they are not fully transparent about

In my opinion, we make every possible effort to be far more transparent than other film manufacturer - but the idea of "full" transparency is both subjective and quite impossible for only two people (me and Nicola) to manage along with everything else we must do.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Dave, thanks for the update. You mention the film needs to be “finished’ after it’s coated and that your finishing partner is the bottleneck. What exactly is “finishing?”

Jim B.

Finishing is the general term applied to the process of slitting to the correct width, perforating, spooling into cartridges, and packaging.

 

[Photo Engineer]

We asked... Maybe you have some additional advice? If so, DM or email me!!

They keep sending me e-mails that advertise custom toll coating with an elaborate web page shown. I have no insider information, but have been in contact with them and know what they can do.

Best wishes.

PE

 

[FILM Ferrania]

So let me just give Dave a virtual pat on the back:
Thanks for your time and your clear and honest communication. You have essentially an impossible job, but even so you are doing well.

Thank YOU!

Speaking of impossible jobs - I did US marketing and sales for Impossible from 2010-2013. So I've heard every kind of complaint imaginable - including none other than Mary Ellen Mark (R.I.P.) calling me a fraud to my face.

 

[twelvetone12]

Firstly thanks Dave for continuing to come here to post! It is always interesting to hear your side of things despite the vitriol and and bizarre discussions that seem fake news going on. Which, BTW, are the main reason why I proposed to EOL this thread.
I'm curious about Carestream (which BTW their site is https://www.tollcoating.com/, I wonder the "toll" to pay!), wasn't it part of Kodak? What was the relationship between Ferrania and Kodak? I know Ferrania made Xray for big K, and sometime in the early 2000s they actually sold the whole division to them. But it seems their relationship was more complex (sorry, I'm curious, I'm a historian and scholar of the XVII century and I just can't help it )

 

[dutchsteammachine]

Thanks for your incredible hard work Film Ferrania! I normally do not shoot B/W, but will buy some P30 when it gets in stock.

To an other 100 years of film!

Ignore the bashing some members have given you, apparently they have nothing but complaints about a group of people who are working tirelessly to produce the medium they shoot on.

The conversation in the last few pages was a bit silly.


Film! film film film! film!

 

[cmacd123]

Thanks once again for Mr. Dave for attempting to bring this rully crowd up to date.

Interesting news that the Coating facilities at Carestream may have had a Ferrania connection vis the shared production of X-ray film...

The one concern at the back of my mind is the mention back a week or two ago that the P30 sales so far have been about a "break even" proposition. (At least as far as the ones sold at the backer discount) I am wondering if their is not a more effecient way to make those sales, either by using a third party platform like Amazon, or ebay, or backing onto a existing photo distibution chain.

As far as the finishing backlog, I dont know who you are currently using for this step - and my few rolls of P30 gave me no clues, but the thought occurs that there are a few folks with lots of finishing capacity (one just on the east of europe and one just off the coast) who might respond to a package deal where they finish some film for you now, so that you can find out the profitable amount to sell) with a promise of a contact for both finishing and private label sales of the e6 film when it starts to flow. Certainly the one on the east of Europe has sold Old Ferrania colour Negative as a private label under the Equicolor trade-name.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Firstly thanks Dave for continuing to come here to post! It is always interesting to hear your side of things despite the vitriol and and bizarre discussions that seem fake news going on. Which, BTW, are the main reason why I proposed to EOL this thread.
I'm curious about Carestream (which BTW their site is https://www.tollcoating.com/, I wonder the "toll" to pay!), wasn't it part of Kodak? What was the relationship between Ferrania and Kodak? I know Ferrania made Xray for big K, and sometime in the early 2000s they actually sold the whole division to them. But it seems their relationship was more complex (sorry, I'm curious, I'm a historian and scholar of the XVII century and I just can't help it )

One setup at Carestream coating.

 

[Berri]

It is impressive how a half-baked badly-written article in italian was able to spur such wild speculation about secret side-projects that Ferrania might have.

I wouldn't give much weight to that article or any other article about this whole thing. Even if ferrania was actually producing a specialty film for scientific research that alone would be something I'd be proud of. It would also mean that they have a customer who could guarantee a steady income.

 

[Harry Callahan]

If we were making x-ray film, we'd be rolling in cash... I can't tell you how many emails we've received from China asking for x-ray products...

I think that´s great to hear that your services are wanted! (My advice: Do some x-ray film and start to roll in cash!)

I wouldn't give much weight to that article or any other article about this whole thing. Even if ferrania was actually producing a specialty film for scientific research that alone would be something I'd be proud of. It would also mean that they have a customer who could guarantee a steady income.

Happy to see that you´re back - let me shake your hand no longer wearing boxing gloves.

 

[fdonadio]

If you don't like it, just don't look at it.

It’s easy to put threads (and users) on ignore, so they won’t show up on the “new posts” page. I never did it to threads, but I have a couple of highly annoying users on ignore.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

The films is readily available in Italy. Many films stores carry it. Why the Ferrania Shop is still closed?

Dave addressed the reasons why.

 

[faberryman]

The films is readily available in Italy. Many films stores carry it. Why the Ferrania Shop is still closed?

What films?

 

[railwayman3]

The films is readily available in Italy. Many films stores carry it.

Not much good if you live about 800 miles drive from Italy.