Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[RPC]

Thanks for the correction. But why didn't you just edit it?

 

[fdonadio]

Thanks for the correction. But why didn't you just edit it?

It’s been quite a while I can’t find the edit button when I’m on my phone. I always forget to report that.

 

[Berri]

You are most certainly correct that a 100 ISO E6 film is needed - for cinema and still both - and we're getting there.

Could you tell us more about when you think you will be getting there?

 

[twelvetone12]

Offering 35mm version of cine films is suicidal too...

Why?

 

[railwayman3]

Focusing on 8mm and 16mm production only is suicidal.
Offering 35mm version of cine films is suicidal too...

I appreciate that there are 8mm and 16mm enthusiasts who will welcome a new supply of film, but surely Ferrania need some solid income from the sale of reliable, readily available, film in the more-used 35mm and 120 sizes to build up reserves before they get too ambitious.

 

[BAC1967]

Focusing on 8mm and 16mm production only is suicidal.
Offering 35mm version of cine films is suicidal too...

When I buy a roll of 8mm film it’s between 25’ and 100’, when I buy a roll of 35mm film it’s about 5’. There may be less people buying movie film but when they do they buy a lot. Don’t discount it’s impact on sales.

 

[railwayman3]

When I buy a roll of 8mm film it’s between 25’ and 100’, when I buy a roll of 35mm film it’s about 5’. There may be less people buying movie film but when they do they buy a lot. Don’t discount it’s impact on sales.

I see your point, but, as Simon (from Ilford/Harman) indicated a long time ago (not sure if it was a forum post or on a factory visit), production costs for the actual film is minimal, the main costs for each size (cine or still) being the packing, i.e. the separate cutting, the cassettes or spools, backing paper, plastic pots or foil sealing, and the outer printed card boxes, both for individual films and wholesale cartons. The same would apply if or when Ferrania goes down the route of less usual sizes, 127, 126, 110, etc.

 

[FilmCurlCom]

I wonder which format would then be the cheapest to produce?
For 16mm motion picture film you only need the film and the metal spool.
No need for a 135 cartridge with the velvet and printing and so on.
No need for highly specialized 120 backing paper.
No need for a Super 8 cassette.
Shouldn't by this logic 16mm movie film be the cheapest for them to produce, or is the daylight metal spool so expensive?

 

[railwayman3]

I wonder which format would then be the cheapest to produce?
For 16mm motion picture film you only need the film and the metal spool.
No need for a 135 cartridge with the velvet and printing and so on.
No need for highly specialized 120 backing paper.
No need for a Super 8 cassette.
Shouldn't by this logic 16mm movie film be the cheapest for them to produce, or is the daylight metal spool so expensive?

Logically the 16mm would seem be the most profitable....the daylight metal spool and container would probably be not much more expensive than the equivalent for standard 8, but the retail price would likely be significantly higher.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Waste generally goes up as format size goes down. Think on that.

 

[fdonadio]

When I was talking about Super-8 and 16mm film, I was also specifically talking about E-6 film, which is what they first announced on their Kickstarter campaign.

Nowadays, no major studios use E-6 film in movie cameras, they use negative (ECN-2), that offers a much greater latitude.

To sum it up: positive film in movie cameras is an amateur thing.

 

[cmacd123]

When I was talking about Super-8 and 16mm film, I was also specifically talking about E-6 film, which is what they first announced on their Kickstarter campaign.
Nowadays, no major studios use E-6 film in movie cameras, they use negative (ECN-2), that offers a much greater latitude.
To sum it up: positive film in movie cameras is an amateur thing.

theatrical pictures and television programmes originated on Film do tend to use ECN-2 stocks (which are down the the Vision 3 series these days)

Music Videos however have used reversal stocks a great deal, Sports films (like skateboarding films) also tend the use like the use of reversal stock.

Film Schools also use Reversal film for assignments and early years projects as it has the limitaions of film but does not have the background delay and effort of making prints from negatives.

I suspect that new ferrania's founders have in mind to use the same stock for both still (slide) film and Movie film. a 100ft roll of 16mm is somewhat more that the same amount of film as 1/2 a 35mm 100ft bulk roll. that amount of film could also make 4 super 8 cartridges or three rolls of regular 8. (thanks ot the leader requirement.)

AS far as P30, it was discontinued for non-technical reasons when 3M decided to exit the movie market. So at least one of the current bosses had resurrecting the stock as a stretch goal of getting Ferrania back running. I would not be surprised to see it appearing in 16mm also.

 

[fdonadio]

Music Videos however have used reversal stocks a great deal, Sports films (like skateboarding films) also tend the use like the use of reversal stock.

Film Schools also use Reversal film for assignments and early years projects as it has the limitaions of film but does not have the background delay and effort of making prints from negatives.

I don’t know about skateboarding video producers using film since Stacy Peralta filmed some parts of Ban This in 35mm. Yes, I was a skateboarding photographer.

Film schools are the perfect users for E-6, as I believe there’s not a market for home movies in film anymore. Kodak is bringing back Ektachrome and releasing a new camera with schools in mind.

Music videos can be shot in whatever the director likes best for the idea he/she wants to express. There’s a beautiful Aphex Twin vídeos shot in color Super-8. Lots of videos have been shot in 16mm.

 

[FilmCurlCom]

I don’t know about skateboarding video producers using film since Stacy Peralta filmed some parts of Ban This in 35mm. Yes, I was a skateboarding photographer.

You were? Nice! Did you meet any well-known guys in the past? I was one too, also filmed on video, but only our local guys, no real famous ones.
"The End" was also shot on 35mm, but then again the Girl team has recently used the new Kodak Super 8 camera to shoot.

Interestingly, there are still several ad companies today, that shoot some scenes on reversal stock, have it scanned and then show it on TV and they would go for smaller gauges like Super 8 too.

 

[fdonadio]

You were? Nice! Did you meet any well-known guys in the past?

I had the chance to shoot the best skaters in Brazil for almost a decade in the 90’s and early 00’s. You can check some of my stuff at http://500px.com/flaviodonadio .

I am shooting an interview for the same magazine I worked for. All film, in medium format. I can’t show anything before it gets published.

 

[FilmCurlCom]

I had the chance to shoot the best skaters in Brazil for almost a decade in the 90’s and early 00’s. You can check some of my stuff at http://500px.com/flaviodonadio .

Just had a look, very nice pictures indeed.
I really like the one with the out of focus cross in the foreground, this kind of connects the beauty of the overall scene with the beauty of the noseslide!
If you happen to have some more of those old ones somewhere, I'd be interested to see them too.

 

[fdonadio]

Just had a look, very nice pictures indeed.
I really like the one with the out of focus cross in the foreground, this kind of connects the beauty of the overall scene with the beauty of the noseslide!
If you happen to have some more of those old ones somewhere, I'd be interested to see them too.

Thank you very much. We invaded a graveyard to shoot that photo.

I have a lot of stuff I didn’t digitize. I am in the process of organizing all my old stuff and it’s harder than I had anticipated.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Hi Christopher - seems maybe you haven't seen any of our updates? The status is that we're not yet capable of producing the rewards, but we're getting there - very slowly. (Don't pay attention to the ones who say we've given up or failed because that's far from the truth).

All Kickstarter updates are archived here: Dead Link Removed - and also on our website, for the most part.

If you have questions not answered in the updates, please email help@filmferrania.it and I'll answer you directly there.

Thanks for the direct response!

I have read all of the updates that were pushed out via the kickstarter website. I was just concerned about the "first 500 numbered rolls" since it hadn't been directly addressed, and the B&W film had been released.

 

[Nzoomed]

Normal doesn't mean necessary. Or productive. Or relevant.

Yes, it's such a shame that we are busy trying to figure out how to make enough film to meet demand that we don't have time to post useless updates that no one reads.

Well as you have said earlier, that the issue of having to try and keep with demand is a good problem to have!

If there is a high demand for P30, then there will be good sales figures.
At least film is being produced and thats better than no colour film or no film at all.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

If there is anyone out there who still doesn't believe that P30 is actually a motion picture stock being re-purposed, this alone should serve as definitive proof!

P30 film is not repurposed motion picture stock. It is newly manufactured by our team. (Where would we get motion picture stock to repurpose anyway?!?)

Then a question pops up: why Ferrania decided to resurrect a cine film instead a still one?

Because we had the formula and procedures readily available to us and because our team had already decided to use P30 as a 2-layer coating test. The tests came out way better than expected. We needed some cash flow. Boom - P30 135/36.

Wasn't P30 sold as a still film back in the day ?

Yes, and Ferrania sold specific chemistry to process it properly because the still version and the cinema version differ only in very small ways mostly related to production methodologies. Perhaps this is why the film never caught on in a big way in the Kodak and Agfa-dominated world of the late-50s/early-60s?

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Could you tell us more about when you think you will be getting there?

No, I cannot say when.

I could say how we are planning to get there, but what purpose would that serve?

You and a few others have shown me the futility of such things - and the other 99.99% of people continue to be willing to take us on our word.

Well, not just "our word" but on the understanding, based on many things we've published in the past, that as a true manufacturer (not just another brand reboxing Agfa film), there is no option for us to simply produce B&W film and that we MUST produce color film products to be viable for the long-term.

 

[MattKing]

P30 film is not repurposed motion picture stock. It is newly manufactured by our team. (Where would we get motion picture stock to repurpose anyway?!?)

Sorry, my word choice was poor. I didn't wish to imply that P30 was old film - it clearly is fresh film, newly made.
What I was pointing out was that the original design of P30 was as a motion picture stock, and this new incarnation reflects that. Motion picture stock is always designed to slightly different criteria than still film stock. The motion picture stock is certainly usable as still film - witness the excellent examples we have seen here and otherwise - but it responds differently to many things, including developer choice.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Well as you have said earlier, that the issue of having to try and keep with demand is a good problem to have!

It's a problem every business wants - until they actually have the problem and have to fix it.

This is because fixing it requires investment and, as we have all seen many times in the past, a reactionary investment to meet demand can backfire terribly if demand somehow fails to grow at the pace required to pay back the investment.

In our case, at this point, having more demand than supply is mostly just frustrating.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Sorry, my word choice was poor. I didn't wish to imply that P30 was old film - it clearly is fresh film, newly made.
What I was pointing out was that the original design of P30 was as a motion picture stock, and this new incarnation reflects that. Motion picture stock is always designed to slightly different criteria than still film stock. The motion picture stock is certainly usable as still film - witness the excellent examples we have seen here and otherwise - but it responds differently to many things, including developer choice.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[cmacd123]

P30

Ferrania sold specific chemistry to process it properly because the still version and the cinema version differ only in very small ways mostly related to production methodologies. Perhaps this is why the film never caught on in a big way in the Kodak and Agfa-dominated world of the late-50s/early-60s?

MY very early exposure (no pun) was to Ferrania P33, an ASA 160 film which I believe was the source of 3M Dynapan. I only ever got even fewer rolls under the ferrania name thna I have so far obtained as P30. Was that a more mainstream film as far as processing? (Supplied here mostly as a bonus film with 3M film processing, send in your film and get a replacement roll of Dyanapan free)

Am I reading between the lines here that you have to move some more steps into the new factory that you were outsourcing to get the production up to speed? (changes that would also be needed to get colour production running)