Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[FILM Ferrania]

Ilford, Adox, Foma, Kentmere, Lucky, Arista, Agfa, Rollei, Lomo, Ferrania, IP. Wittner (though I don't know if they do stills) and Cinestill (though I don't know if you'd count that as a separate brand).

And for the record, I don't want my images scratched or mussed. The colors of Velvia or grain structure of Tri-X put them miles above digital IMHO.

Lemme know if I missed any brands. I'm going off the top of my head, and I'm just a youngun after all

There is a really big difference between Brands and Manufacturers.
The only truly self-contained, end-to-end manufacturer in the world right now is Fuji. Kodak and Ilford are close, but neither manufactures their own base so that technically rules them out.
All the rest (including FILM Ferrania at this point in time) rely on products or services from each other to produce their branded products.
And several of the brands you mentioned just buy fully finished products from someone else and put their brand on the box.

We have the potential in the long-term of being entirely self-contained - but the investment required, especially to put base casting online, is out of reach for some time yet - unless, as I've said before, some angel investor decides that apps are boring and turns their attention to manufacturing real stuff. That would speed things up a good bit, but we're not relying on it in any way. We are forging ahead, despite whatever criticism we receive, to stay alive and grow and eventually reach the point of self-sufficiency.

 

[twelvetone12]

I don't want to bash Ferrania or sound negative or anything, but I would just like to have a clear view of what is going on, and I really don't want to sound harsh.
When I participated to the kickstarter I knew well it was to purchase the machinery, but the same campaign made it also sound that the color film was kind "around the corner" - you could make a batch in 2015 and after restructuring it would be possible to go on production in a somewhat timely fashion. It turns out it is not the case - and please don't get me wrong, this is not a critique, complex industrial processes are complex - and probably it will not be ready anytime soon. But I wish the kickstarter made that clearer - if the 2015 window closes, that's it: color film is going to be a long-term project, with years on the making. The fact that much of the communication stressed that Ferrania had no interest in BW film somewhat reinforced the idea that color would be ready more or less soon.
Please know that I'm more than happy that you achieved P30 right now (and I'm happy to have ordered it), but I think you owe us backers at least the complete explanation - I feel the 2015 deadline was much more precarious than depicted, and the road to color material was much much more steep than described.
I have no problem i waiting knowing that the investment on kicstarter is being put to a good fruit, even if it will be more years till color film, if this is what it takes to create for you a sustainable business. But I feel this stance should be completely cleared from your part.

 

[mshchem]

We have the potential in the long-term of being entirely self-contained - but the investment required, especially to put base casting online, is out of reach for some time yet - unless, as I've said before, some angel investor decides that apps are boring and turns their attention to manufacturing real stuff. That would speed things up a good bit, but we're not relying on it in any way. We are forging ahead, despite whatever criticism we receive, to stay alive and grow and eventually reach the point of self-sufficiency.

Bill Gates are you listening???

 

[bvy]

And if you received a roll that was scratched before it was sent to you, you'd be the first, but it would certainly qualify for a replacement.

Not wanting to stir the pot, but rather hoping the feedback will prove useful for quality control purposes. I also noticed some scratches on the film. I might have guessed they were from the camera or cassette, but as I explained in another thread, something with the cassette caused my camera to auto-rewind on frame 21, and I didn't try to reshoot. Rather I developed the entire roll as is. Still, one or two scratches ran the entire length of the film -- through the unexposed, unspooled portion, all the way off the cut end inside the cassette. They're not egregious, but they are there. Just FYI...

 

[Photo Engineer]

FYI, Kodak had a huge backlog of support and if it has not been all used up, they are still self contained.

PE

 

[FilmCurlCom]

I haven't found anything connected to this on your latest website post. Did you get any further info on this? I wanted to understand what less capable actually means.

Yes, sorry - I could not reply to anything for several days. See my other reply to this request.

Don't worry, thanks for replying now.

Not wanting to stir the pot, but rather hoping the feedback will prove useful for quality control purposes. I also noticed some scratches on the film. I might have guessed they were from the camera or cassette, but as I explained in another thread, something with the cassette caused my camera to auto-rewind on frame 21, and I didn't try to reshoot. Rather I developed the entire roll as is. Still, one or two scratches ran the entire length of the film -- through the unexposed, unspooled portion, all the way off the cut end inside the cassette. They're not egregious, but they are there. Just FYI...

I have shot another roll with the same camera and a third one with a different camera (my main camera).
Am currently away on vacation but when I'm back I will develop both films and check for scratches.
I hardly believe the first camera scratches film (but who knows). However, I am 100% sure the second one (my main camera) did never scratch any film before.
I will let you know once I am back what the results look like.

 

[jogr]

We have the potential in the long-term of being entirely self-contained - but the investment required, especially to put base casting online, is out of reach for some time yet

Another technical question relating to the Kodak films.
In one of the films they installed a new casting wheel. It was humongus! Around 10m high.
Is Ferranias base casting equipment on that scale and can you shoehorne it in the LRF building, or is the plan to build a new annex when you have to move it from where it is now.

/Johan

 

[twelvetone12]

I think Kodak had moved on to newer technologies for making base (the wheel is on display in Kodak Park, impressive!). Too bad they nuked their acetate plant.

 

[cmacd123]

In one of the films they installed a new casting wheel. It was humongus! Around 10m high.
Is Ferranias base casting equipment on that scale

I thought it was mentioned somewhere that the trend in Europe is to use Base making machines with a seamless belt (which must be an interesting device to fabricate in itself.) since the belt can flex, it allows for a lower profile machine. Environmental rules probably require the entire process be enclosed to recover 100% of the solvents used to dissolve the CTA plastic, and My guess is that the machine may have to be modified before it can be placed back in service.

The was a post that the base machine they have purchased was not easily movable and so they are keeping it in the building where it was originally installed, and the landlord has agreed to keep at least that part of the building intact.

This does raise an issue going forward, as Ilford and Kodak are planning to depend on (what seems to be a single) German supplier, which I suspect (without proof) also supplies Foma. if that is the case we are looking at one point of failure in the Acetate base film supply chain.

It is also a sticky problem as in "Making Kodak Film" there is the comment that the base casting process is inherently a continuous process, (which resulted in Kodak having a many year supply before they shut their plant down.) so this is not something that can be started up to make a few jumbo rolls and mothballed. Having the machine in existence does provide the posibility that it could be a source of supply not just for ferrania but the rest of the industry, so having it is a plus for ongoing viability of analogue film, even if they decide to place their orders for the moment (after they clear teh stock they have) with the same source as Ilford uses.

(and recall that Foma had a period where they were unable to acquire the CLEAR base they needed for R-100, which of course is also needed for colour E-6 Film. B&W is normally on a grey base (as is P-30) and C-41 film as well as Colour Movie negative can also be made on the grey base. so E-6 requires a Niche Product film base.)

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I don't want to bash Ferrania or sound negative or anything, but I would just like to have a clear view of what is going on, and I really don't want to sound harsh.
When I participated to the kickstarter I knew well it was to purchase the machinery, but the same campaign made it also sound that the color film was kind "around the corner" - you could make a batch in 2015 and after restructuring it would be possible to go on production in a somewhat timely fashion. It turns out it is not the case - and please don't get me wrong, this is not a critique, complex industrial processes are complex - and probably it will not be ready anytime soon. But I wish the kickstarter made that clearer - if the 2015 window closes, that's it: color film is going to be a long-term project, with years on the making. The fact that much of the communication stressed that Ferrania had no interest in BW film somewhat reinforced the idea that color would be ready more or less soon.
Please know that I'm more than happy that you achieved P30 right now (and I'm happy to have ordered it), but I think you owe us backers at least the complete explanation - I feel the 2015 deadline was much more precarious than depicted, and the road to color material was much much more steep than described.
I have no problem i waiting knowing that the investment on kicstarter is being put to a good fruit, even if it will be more years till color film, if this is what it takes to create for you a sustainable business. But I feel this stance should be completely cleared from your part.

First, let me say that we're very happy that you (and many others) are happy with P30. We're really quite proud of it, and demand for it is much higher than we expected. 120 and 4x5 formats are coming - hopefully before the winter holidays, but it remains to be seen.

Concerning the Kickstarter campaign - we did say that we had one shot to make the Kickstarter batch. In the fall of 2014, we had a generous window of opportunity - so it was "around the corner." We had no reason, at the time, to expect this window to close so abruptly.

Our founders tried every possible angle to keep the window from closing completely, but our landlord is the Italian government, and as ridiculous as it sounds, they needed 8 weeks to remove a bit of asbestos. That was most of our window to run the single Kickstarter batch. The weather did the rest of the damage by blanketing northern Italy in a heat wave that overwhelmed the chiller that was installed at that time. Neither of these things was predictable, nor controllable. And by the time the asbestos was abated and our team sealed off 90% of the building, the coater room still could not be cooled to the proper temperature. This closed the window. A month or so later, our primary umbilical for electric, steam and water was severed. This locked the window closed. You can look at the posts from early 2015. You can clearly SEE that we were on track - and you can also see where it all went wrong - and subsequently, what we did to try to correct the problem until we had to shift our strategy entirely. It's all there.

But we explained all of this already... The "complete explanation" exists. It is the accumulation of all the updates we've posted.

Also, regarding the idea that your investment is being "put to a good fruit" - it was. Past-tense. We used the funding to purchase the machines that will allow us to eventually become self-contained - as said in the campaign and many times since. None of those machines were necessary to make the rewards and this remains true today. Nearly everything we purchased in winter 2014/2015 is still in storage.

With all of this said, we are right now working on our next Kickstarter-specific update that hopefully (if people read it) will address much of the above and more.

 

[mshchem]

Eastman Chemical is a leader in polyester plastic resins. I don't know if ESTAR bases are extruded or cast? I would think extrusion would be feasible. I would think that a small operation could be setup. Cellulose acetate has been around a long time.
Not sure how environmental regs. could factor in. I know that regulations like the EU RoHS (Restriction on Hazardous Substances) and CA Prop 65 shook things up. Elimination of lead based solder helped to do in some products (like fancy medium format cameras and Xpan etc.).

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Not wanting to stir the pot, but rather hoping the feedback will prove useful for quality control purposes. I also noticed some scratches on the film. I might have guessed they were from the camera or cassette, but as I explained in another thread, something with the cassette caused my camera to auto-rewind on frame 21, and I didn't try to reshoot. Rather I developed the entire roll as is. Still, one or two scratches ran the entire length of the film -- through the unexposed, unspooled portion, all the way off the cut end inside the cassette. They're not egregious, but they are there. Just FYI...

Not stirring the pot at all!!

Defects are of a very specific type and well-known by our team on sight. Our ramp-up was very slow in April and May because every defect was investigated and fixed before a new coating run.

But of course, although very rare so far, defects can still happen.

I'm more than happy to replace defective film now that pre-orders have shipped and I have a small bit of extra stock. But we have to see a few example frames first to know if the film went out defective, or if something else happened. There is a submission form on the P30 page on our site, or you can just email scans to help@filmferrania.it.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Another technical question relating to the Kodak films.
In one of the films they installed a new casting wheel. It was humongus! Around 10m high.
Is Ferranias base casting equipment on that scale and can you shoehorne it in the LRF building, or is the plan to build a new annex when you have to move it from where it is now.

/Johan

Our triacetate base casting equipment could technically be installed in the LRF, yes - and this was the plan when the original building was going to be demolished.
Fortunately for us, the demolition was cancelled and we now have the option to rent the building with all of the machines still in place.
This means that our investment to put these machines online is much less now than it was originally - but it still requires an investment that we cannot yet afford.

We bought two lines. A pilot line that casts jumbos that cut down easily to fit our precision coater, and a full-size line that casts "Kodak-standard" jumbos.
One of these days, profits permitting, we will tackle this project. For now, everything is safe.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I thought it was mentioned somewhere that the trend in Europe is to use Base making machines with a seamless belt (which must be an interesting device to fabricate in itself.) since the belt can flex, it allows for a lower profile machine. Environmental rules probably require the entire process be enclosed to recover 100% of the solvents used to dissolve the CTA plastic, and My guess is that the machine may have to be modified before it can be placed back in service.

The was a post that the base machine they have purchased was not easily movable and so they are keeping it in the building where it was originally installed, and the landlord has agreed to keep at least that part of the building intact.

This does raise an issue going forward, as Ilford and Kodak are planning to depend on (what seems to be a single) German supplier, which I suspect (without proof) also supplies Foma. if that is the case we are looking at one point of failure in the Acetate base film supply chain.

It is also a sticky problem as in "Making Kodak Film" there is the comment that the base casting process is inherently a continuous process, (which resulted in Kodak having a many year supply before they shut their plant down.) so this is not something that can be started up to make a few jumbo rolls and mothballed. Having the machine in existence does provide the posibility that it could be a source of supply not just for ferrania but the rest of the industry, so having it is a plus for ongoing viability of analogue film, even if they decide to place their orders for the moment (after they clear teh stock they have) with the same source as Ilford uses.

(and recall that Foma had a period where they were unable to acquire the CLEAR base they needed for R-100, which of course is also needed for colour E-6 Film. B&W is normally on a grey base (as is P-30) and C-41 film as well as Colour Movie negative can also be made on the grey base. so E-6 requires a Niche Product film base.)

This comment is QUITE astute!
You are right that everyone (except Fuji, as far as I know) purchases triacetate base from the German supplier, or, in rare cases, from a Chinese supplier. As far as I know, these are the last two manufacturers of triacetate on the planet.
And you are quite right that we very clearly understood the importance of saving the two casting lines at Ferrania. We did not overstate, in our Kickstarter, that saving those machines was critical for the future - and not just OUR future, but the future of triacetate production, period.
Of course, things have turned upward a bit in the last couple of years and the German supplier, from what I understand, is doing bang-up business - which takes a good bit of pressure off us to restore our own base casting equipment.
I'm not sure if the Germans can make clear base, probably yes as a special order... But we have a lot in storage already. We won't know the final number of square meters until we test all of it thoroughly - but we certainly have enough to make our Kickstarter rewards and more beyond that.

 

[dhkirby]

There is a really big difference between Brands and Manufacturers.
The only truly self-contained, end-to-end manufacturer in the world right now is Fuji. Kodak and Ilford are close, but neither manufactures their own base so that technically rules them out.
All the rest (including FILM Ferrania at this point in time) rely on products or services from each other to produce their branded products.
And several of the brands you mentioned just buy fully finished products from someone else and put their brand on the box.

We have the potential in the long-term of being entirely self-contained - but the investment required, especially to put base casting online, is out of reach for some time yet - unless, as I've said before, some angel investor decides that apps are boring and turns their attention to manufacturing real stuff. That would speed things up a good bit, but we're not relying on it in any way. We are forging ahead, despite whatever criticism we receive, to stay alive and grow and eventually reach the point of self-sufficiency.

I know most of the brands I listed were re-brands or sub-brands. I didn't realize however that Fuji was the only self-contained manufacturer (I thought Harman produced base as well). Interesting factoid. I did know that Kodak didn't produce base.

Mostly I just meant it as a rebuttal against the "nobody under 25 knows any film besides Kodak" post. The cheekiness seems to have been lost...

Anyways, I missed out on the pre-order window and can't wait to get my hands on some P30. The stuff looks great!

And Dave, thanks for being such a presence on here. Someone like you/Simon Galley is such a valuable resource.

 

[cmacd123]

Eastman Chemical is a leader in polyester plastic resins. I don't know if ESTAR bases are extruded or cast? I would think extrusion would be feasible. .

If you read "Making Kodak Film" their is almost a separate chapter on making polyester (ESTAR, Conar, etc) base. the machinery is quite complex as the base is extruded, and then must be stretched in both directions to get the needed properties. Clips are automatically installed every few centimetres and then automatically removed and returned to the attaching stations.

Poly base is used for many applications, but not for Movie camera film, and is problematic for 35mm still film.

poly can only be spliced with tape splices or an ultrasonic splicer, so it is dificult to edit movies shot on Poly. there is also a risk of breaking the camera if you were to loose the loops.

for 35mm stills, Poly is very prone to "light pipeing" where a small amount of light striking the leader can fog the film in the cassette. This is why the ADOX.DE films on Poly base explain the need to only load in subdued light.

the film coating base layers are also different for Poly.

some films like Movie Projection prints do use poly because fo it's extra strength. Microfilm uses it for extra storage stability, AERO film uses it because it is more stable in size.

most of the markets Ferrania is aiming for probably would perfer Acetate.

 

[cmacd123]

I know most of the brands I listed were re-brands or sub-brands. I didn't realize however that Fuji was the only self-contained manufacturer (I thought Harman produced base as well). Interesting factoid.

ILFORD always bought in base, read "Silver by the ton" and you will find that at the start of WWII they had to scramble as they were were buying their base from Agfa, in enemy Germany. I think the war ministry twisted ICL's arm to set up film base production for the duration for the war effort if I remember that chapter.

 

[Photo Engineer]

IIRC, ICI (Imperial Chemicals) supplies a lot of support. I believe that is where Jim Browning got his and I got mine from Jim and later the Formulary.

Kodak bought, and Ilford buy paper base from Schoeller in Germany. IDK if anyone buys film base there. Please update me.

PE

 

[mshchem]

If you read "Making Kodak Film" their is almost a separate chapter on making polyester (ESTAR, Conar, etc) base. the machinery is quite complex as the base is extruded, and then must be stretched in both directions to get the needed properties. Clips are automatically installed every few centimetres and then automatically removed and returned to the attaching stations.

Poly base is used for many applications, but not for Movie camera film, and is problematic for 35mm still film.

poly can only be spliced with tape splices or an ultrasonic splicer, so it is dificult to edit movies shot on Poly. there is also a risk of breaking the camera if you were to loose the loops.

for 35mm stills, Poly is very prone to "light pipeing" where a small amount of light striking the leader can fog the film in the cassette. This is why the ADOX.DE films on Poly base explain the need to only load in subdued light.

the film coating base layers are also different for Poly.

some films like Movie Projection prints do use poly because fo it's extra strength. Microfilm uses it for extra storage stability, AERO film uses it because it is more stable in size.

most of the markets Ferrania is aiming for probably would perfer Acetate.

Biaxial extrusion is very common in production of packaging films. It's not rocket science. PET is one of the most common films made. I don't know where everyone gets the base.
I suspect that it simply makes no economic sense to produce acetate or ESTAR base film in house. Of course Fuji has a huge hit with Instax and never went broke.

 

[twelvetone12]

With all of this said, we are right now working on our next Kickstarter-specific update that hopefully (if people read it) will address much of the above and more.

Thanks Dave for taking all the time to reply to our ramblings And thanks for the upcoming kickstarter update - it is much appreciated as your presence here.

 

[FilmCurlCom]

Not stirring the pot at all!!

Defects are of a very specific type and well-known by our team on sight. Our ramp-up was very slow in April and May because every defect was investigated and fixed before a new coating run.

But of course, although very rare so far, defects can still happen.

I'm more than happy to replace defective film now that pre-orders have shipped and I have a small bit of extra stock. But we have to see a few example frames first to know if the film went out defective, or if something else happened. There is a submission form on the P30 page on our site, or you can just email scans to help@filmferrania.it.

Dave, as soon as I get to develop the other two rolls I shot (in 1.5-2 weeks I assume) I will share sample shots in case I can see scratches again.
I don't mind them that much, I anyways scan and can repair them in Photoshop, but it might be useful for you guys to investigate. Will come back to you.
Bernhard

 

[twelvetone12]

If you read "Making Kodak Film" their is almost a separate chapter on making polyester (ESTAR, Conar, etc) base.

The two plants were indeed separate as the two productions have nothing in common. Too bad one was imploded.
If I understood well, kokak produced what they thought would be a lifetime supply of base for their camera cinema film demand, while all the film produced for Alaris is on the third party base.
I think just imploding the acetate facility was quite a short headed decision..

 

[RattyMouse]

The two plants were indeed separate as the two productions have nothing in common. Too bad one was imploded.
If I understood well, kokak produced what they thought would be a lifetime supply of base for their camera cinema film demand, while all the film produced for Alaris is on the third party base.
I think just imploding the acetate facility was quite a short headed decision..

One in a long line of many for Kodak.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

IIRC, ICI (Imperial Chemicals) supplies a lot of support. I believe that is where Jim Browning got his and I got mine from Jim and later the Formulary.

Kodak bought, and Ilford buy paper base from Schoeller in Germany. IDK if anyone buys film base there. Please update me.

PE

As far as I can tell, Eastman Kodak is still producing the ESTAR base for Kodak Alaris sheet film in house (Rochester). Have you heard anything to contradict that Ron?

Sheet film on acetate is, in my opinion, a step down. Dimensional stability and life expectancy don't even approach what polyester provides. My fingers are crossed that Eastman Kodak continues with vertically integrated ESTAR manufacturing.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Sal, I have no update. Talk to Bob Shanebrook for that.

PE