Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[fdonadio]

And only 10 pages long? ;-)

I didn't ignore that much people. Only some very persistent and arrogant haters that seem to have too much time in their hands.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have said this before! I'll rephrase it here. The route to a good color film is through a good B&W film. ALL color films are made with what are fundamentally B&W emulsions. So, what they have done is completely logical to me, even if it is not to some of you.

PE

 

[Berri]

I have said this before! I'll rephrase it here. The route to a good color film is through a good B&W film. ALL color films are made with what are fundamentally B&W emulsions. So, what they have done is completely logical to me, even if it is not to some of you.

PE

I'd like to make myself clear once more as well. I understand that the route to a good colour film goes through a good b w film, and I also understand that making a colour film is not something that can happen in a flick of the wrist like Ferrania made it look like when the project started (yes the mythological window that closed...I know). I wish them luck (besides what others might think I am not an hater) but my point is not that, my point is that they never had a reasonable timeline from the beginning. All I say is that their credibility is very low at the moment and it is not through telling stories that they'll make a sustainable business. The way their spokesman talk to people who have reasonable doubts is utterly ridiculous and non professional.

I think the Italian staff made a great job and selling the p30 is a good idea too. I honestly don't think their efforts will be enough to make a profitable business for the future, but that is just my point of view

 

[FILM Ferrania]

The fact that Ferrania think that their products are viable is obvious by the fact that they are trying to manufacture and sell them. I'm sure they know it won't be easy and that they have their work cut out, and they obviously feel that the effort is worth it. Your answers are there, plain and simple. If Ferrania didn't believe, they'd stop.

You hit the bullseye there. 100% exactly precisely right.

Our team has been through a grand tour of Hell over the last (almost) five years since first stepping onto the derelict Ferrania campus. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong, and even many things that "couldn't" go wrong also went wrong. Every hardship that any startup has ever faced, we have faced - and with a side dish of making a product that most of the world already thinks is dead and gone.

And yet, here we are, slowly making our first product and shipping it to the world as best we are able. This has only been possible through sheer force of will - and absolutely no other reason. This will to keep going is not because we're martyrs to some lost cause or hopeless nostalgists or just garden-variety insane - but because we have all eyes focused on the prize.

That prize is creating a film manufacturing base that does not HAVE to make and sell millions of anything - one that can bend to the market's whims on a few days' notice, one that can produce in relatively tiny numbers and remain profitable, one that can research and develop entirely new products - many of which we have never spoken about publicly - one that can support the industry in a way that literally NO OTHER company can do (or in the case of Fuji - is willing to do) at this point in time, one that is self-contained, self-sufficient and in many ways, immune to any further fluctuations in the market - all while remaining profitable.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I'd like to make myself clear once more as well. I understand that the route to a good colour film goes through a good b w film, and I also understand that making a colour film is not something that can happen in a flick of the wrist like Ferrania made it look like when the project started. I wish them luck (besides what others might think I am not an hater) but my point is not that, my point is that they never had a reasonable timeline from the beginning. All I say is that their credibility is very low at the moment and it is not through telling stories that they'll make a sustainable business. The way their spokesman talk to people who have reasonable doubts is utterly ridiculous and non professional.

I think the Italian staff made a great job and selling the p30 is a good idea too. I honestly don't think their efforts will be enough to make a profitable business for the future, but that is just my point of view

You can just call me Dave, Berri. I'm the "utterly ridiculous and non professional" spokesman. No one else is to blame.

If we do go out of business at some point in the future, you are free to give yourself a giant pat on the back for being so insightful.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Wasn't P30 some sort of a happy incident and it made you guys say "hey, you know what, we should sell this stuff, it's great!"

That's why the accident was so happy.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Berri, no one can accurately predict a timeline such as this. My opinions do not matter despite my prior experience. All plans go awry. Just try being married with a house full of children and try to plan a picnic. One in which you need governmental approval!

PE

 

[FILM Ferrania]

My point, made several times, but not addressed, is whether, given the changes in the market over four years, there is still a viable and ongoing long-term demand to give the needed sales volume of the suggested future products (which are of a specialist nature). I'm not negative....but IDK.

Ok, let me address your point directly. Yes, with respect to FILM Ferrania and our plans, there is still a viable and ongoing long-term demand to give the needed sales volume of the suggested future products. See the "prize" post upstream.

 

[MattKing]

Just try being married with a house full of children and try to plan a picnic. One in which you need governmental approval!

Sounds like they could use your help in Washington right now

 

[Europan]

Look, the world is observing two film manufacturers that both promised to bring a reversal color film to the market, namely Film Ferrania with a Scotchchrome or Ferraniachrome or whatever it might be called eventually and Kodak with some kind of a new Ektachrome. Me as a motion-picture film technician, in the narrowest sense who have seen base making on the go, subbing, and coating, who have experienced Eastman-Kodak specialists trying to set CRI and ECN-2 processes back on track, who have exposed and developed almost every film made between the 60s and today, even age-old Pathé stock customers have sent to my lab, I can only say that I have mountains more of faith in Ferrania than Kodak. You Ferrania folks talk at least, be it also very talkative at times, but the Kodakers veil themselves in silence and that is only embarrassing. What Kodak published about a planned Super-8 camera was amateurish, the presentations by people who you think they can hardly pull on their pants alone, plain stuporous.

Film Ferrania lives in the 21st century, they showed some of their perforators in videos, they showed themselves at work. I shall never buy any Ektachrome, should it become available, but the stock from Italy.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Look, the world is observing two film manufacturers that both promised to bring a reversal color film to the market, namely Film Ferrania with a Scotchchrome or Ferraniachrome or whatever it might be called eventually and Kodak with some kind of a new Ektachrome. Me as a motion-picture film technician, in the narrowest sense who have seen base making on the go, subbing, and coating, who have experienced Eastman-Kodak specialists trying to set CRI and ECN-2 processes back on track, who have exposed and developed almost every film made between the 60s and today, even age-old Pathé stock customers have sent to my lab, I can only say that I have mountains more of faith in Ferrania than Kodak. You Ferrania folks talk at least, be it also very talkative at times, but the Kodakers veil themselves in silence and that is only embarrassing. What Kodak published about a planned Super-8 camera was amateurish, the presentations by people who you think they can hardly pull on their pants alone, plain stuporous.

Film Ferrania lives in the 21st century, they showed some of their perforators in videos, they showed themselves at work. I shall never buy any Ektachrome, should it become available, but the stock from Italy.

Thanks for this! You're right that I talk too much, but we as a company truly believe that it's better than not enough...

 

[kb3lms]

It's fine. Just keep talking.

 

[Berri]

You can just call me Dave, Berri. I'm the "utterly ridiculous and non professional" spokesman. No one else is to blame.

If we do go out of business at some point in the future, you are free to give yourself a giant pat on the back for being so insightful.

That is what I mean. You make me feel like I have to justify myself for what I think, while it is you that should work hard and try to make me see things a different way. You are hostile to the hostiles and that is not gonna work because it is you that is trying to sell something, not me.

 

[Berri]

Berri, no one can accurately predict a timeline such as this. My opinions do not matter despite my prior experience. All plans go awry. Just try being married with a house full of children and try to plan a picnic. One in which you need governmental approval!

PE

If I was in the position of planning that picnic, I surely wouldn't say we'd all be by the meadow at twelve when the clock says eleven

 

[cmacd123]

If I was in the position of planning that picnic, I surely wouldn't say we'd all be by the meadow at twelve when the clock says eleven

depends how far the trip to the meadow is. What both Dave and PE are saying is that the road is full of ruts and the car probably needs some repairs. But the picnic might be as soon as 12 or It might be next month, but lets be optimistic.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I think that I have more experience than the average bear. Charles is right. Things never go as expected in R&D.

PE

 

[ericdan]

I think that I have more experience than the average bear. Charles is right. Things never go as expected in R&D.

PE

Does that mean Kodak is also very unlikely to reintroduce Ektachrome in Q4 this year as announced in January?

 

[ericdan]

depends how far the trip to the meadow is. What both Dave and PE are saying is that the road is full of ruts and the car probably needs some repairs. But the picnic might be as soon as 12 or It might be next month, but lets be optimistic.

why not simply under promise and try to over deliver?

 

[Nzoomed]

Does that mean Kodak is also very unlikely to reintroduce Ektachrome in Q4 this year as announced in January?

quite possible, although they have way more staff and resources than ferrania

 

[railwayman3]

You can just call me Dave, Berri. I'm the "utterly ridiculous and non professional" spokesman. No one else is to blame.

If we do go out of business at some point in the future, you are free to give yourself a giant pat on the back for being so insightful.

Unbelievable. Is Ferrania a serious company to reply in this tone ?

 

[Toffle]

Unbelievable. Is Ferrania a serious company to reply in this tone ?

Unbelievable indeed. Given the baiting and bashing that Dave has witnessed on this thread, (not to mention personal attacks on his integrity) I would say that he has been a model of patience and decorum. I don't blame him for getting a little peeved. You could claim the moral high ground if your own posts were the model to which Dave should aspire. His tone is far less insulting than the mud slinging I see here.

 

[Diapositivo]

Unbelievable. Is Ferrania a serious company to reply in this tone ?

Man, this is a forum, not a PR press conference.

I like the fact that a spokeperson from a firm can interact with forum participants and answer questions etc. That said, he's a person and has all the right to be pissed, just like me and you.

A forum is not a place where people vents discontent without any sort of reply because that would be not "serious". "Interactions" happen in both directions.

I respect Berri's right to make criticisms, to be open and sincere about his doubts, to utter his feelings. Actually I think that this kind of criticism is not necessarily "deconstructive" and I read Berri's interventions in less a negative light than most.
And I find his thoughts perfectly reasonable, also when I disagree with him, and I like this kind of interaction this being a forum.
On the other hand, I respect the right of the spokeperson of a firm, being called into cause personally, or as a representative of the firm, to answer with the same sincerity and clarity. Let's be man and accept some "manly" exchange.

A forum is a forum. We ask questions, we get answers, we interact. A spokesman is not somebody paid to ask sorry and to take the blame. Not in a forum.

Also, I don't like the "underpromise and overdeliver" policy because that, in a forum of passionate amateurs like ours, would just be insincere and useless and treat us like spoiled children.

I prefer, by far, Ferrania's attitude of being sincere about their expectations regarding the schedule, and then being sincere regarding unforeseen circumstances and unforeseen delays.

I have much more trust in Ferrania after all the problems than I had beforehand, because I saw that they can crush problems and go forward, rather than just offer a "calculated miscalculation" and keep us basically in the dark.

Kodak's strategy of announcing Ektachrome, Super-8 etc. and then living people in the dark is also in my opinion much worse. It will have been worse even if they deliver Ektachrome in the III quarter. I prefer firms which communicate. Don't shoot the pianist! Enjoy the possibility to have a direct line with a firm rather than discourage interaction.

 

[afriman]

I think that I have more experience than the average bear. Charles is right. Things never go as expected in R&D.

PE

Therefore, it's sound advice to "expect the unexpected". Successful businesses throughout the world have learned this from bitter experience.

why not simply under promise and try to over deliver?

This has been advised a number of times before. But nothing that in any way even smacks of questioning the status quo seems to be tolerated on this forum.

 

[tim_walls]

why not simply under promise and try to over deliver?

You know, I know this sounds like a great piece of advice, and of course in many scenarios, it is...

...but based on my experience, if every company I ever worked for had followed it, I reckon one or two of them would have gone out of business instead of being a success. Anyone who has been in business for any length of time has pitched for a contract that was going to stretch the hell out of them, or sold the product before it was really quite ready, or known they were going into their busiest sales weekend on a wing and a prayer because the resources needed to guarantee everything's going to be A-OK simply aren't available or affordable.

And in no case was it ever done in an attempt to deceive or hoodwink. It was always done on the basis of "we're doing this because even though we know we can't guarantee it's going to work out the way we want, we know we're going to bloody well pull out every stop we can and do our best."


What's the alternative? Don't pitch for the contract, and you're going to guarantee you don't get the business, your competitor will. Don't sell the product until you know it's 100% guaranteed to be ready - and watch your competitors take your market from under you. Put up a sign saying "please come back next weekend" on the busiest weekend of the year because you think your systems are going to fall apart - and watch your customers call you idiots and go to a competitor.

Sure, they're all safe plays, and you'll never risk disappointing anyone. But they're probably also a pretty good way to ensure your competitors will out-innovate, out-pace and out-last you.


If we were talking about IBM or Hewlett Packard, sure, maybe we should hold them to that safe and reliable standard (although that, of course, is why huge companies always - eventually - end up seeing their lunch stolen by the nimble upstart that can afford to take risks.) But we're not talking about that, we're talking about a startup funded through, of all things, Kickstarter. If you're investing your pension in it, you've made a terrible mistake, you were looking for a nice dowdy index tracker...

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...feel like I have to justify myself for what I think...

If you can't justify your criticisms, the old saying many mothers express to their children ("If you've nothing nice to say, say nothing") seems appropriate.

...You are hostile to the hostiles...

As best I can determine, Film Ferrania is a commercial enterprise, not a Christian sect. Turning the other cheek is what members of the latter group do. Defending themselves when attacked typifies behavior of the former category.

I am utterly impressed by Dave's patience and general implacability in this thread. Keep it up, Dave. You're a better man than I am.