Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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Prest_400

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Yes I agree, I'd be happy with something similar to Astia in terms of colour rendition. An high speed reversal would be much appreciated as well though. The most important thing though is the dyes stability over time.

I have the perception that the Ferrania palette may veer towards a more Classic look, if it is not as "technically perfect" as Fujichrome.
But I bet more towards a moderate contrast, normal saturation; something like Velvia seems too far off the map.
 

Nzoomed

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I have the perception that the Ferrania palette may veer towards a more Classic look, if it is not as "technically perfect" as Fujichrome.
But I bet more towards a moderate contrast, normal saturation; something like Velvia seems too far off the map.
"classic" look sounds good to me, scotchchrome seems to look rather like that if you ask me. We need such a film that gives warmer colours like what Kodak E100SW offered, since there is nothing on the market.

I like these scotchchrome results if we see something similar with the new ferraniachrome!
8133460210_b958e763e8_b.jpg
 

FILM Ferrania

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I don't know if this has been covered yet. Has there been a projection about pricing of the Ferrania films?

The ALPHA film will be priced slightly lower than our target price for our final films, and as someone pointed out, we will be priced in the middle of the market out of the gate.

We're pretty solid on the price right now, but we will announce it to everyone at the same time when we launch the shop later this month.
 

flavio81

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Economy of scale is so far on Fuji's side here, that Ferrania (or any other small film maker) won't stand a chance in terms of pricing.

I'm not so sure. If we're talking about reversal film, I think it's the opposite. The whole thing about re-launching Ferrania and re-purposing the LRC (Ferrania's Research&Development facility where the current coater is located) was precisely to be able to have a film factory that operates profitable on a small scale production. Fuji only operates profitably with very very large scale production, and E6 suffers because of this (there's small demand compared to B&W film and C41 film, not to mention compared to the demand of said films before the digital era!)

So, in my view, economies of scale are totally on Ferrania's side!
 

Peter Schrager

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Go Ferrania! I think the project is amazing come to life story...besides fuji could drop out tomorrow and leave everyone high and dry
Looking forward to the back and white..more choices!!!
 

pbromaghin

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I'm not so sure. If we're talking about reversal film, I think it's the opposite. The whole thing about re-launching Ferrania and re-purposing the LRC (Ferrania's Research&Development facility where the current coater is located) was precisely to be able to have a film factory that operates profitable on a small scale production. Fuji only operates profitably with very very large scale production, and E6 suffers because of this (there's small demand compared to B&W film and C41 film, not to mention compared to the demand of said films before the digital era!)

So, in my view, economies of scale are totally on Ferrania's side!

Agreed 100%. Fuji's and Kodak's problem is that their machines are too large for today's market. The LRF might be just right until volume grows beyond its capacity. Ilford is successful in large part because they are right-sized for the market.
 

Chris Livsey

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[QUOTE="pbromaghin, post: 1887121, member: 44109" Ilford is successful in large part because they are right-sized for the market.[/QUOTE]

And their coater can be changed, in day or two, to coat paper.
 

Europan

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Fuji's and Kodak's problem is that their machines are too large for today's market.
Sorry, if I disturb your view. That is not true. When Agfa-Gevaert, one of the big players, starts a coating run, guess what length of the stock is unusable. Less than a foot, about ten inches or 25 cm. They can coat short rolls and smaller rolls, no problem. Fuji have smaller machines and pilot coaters, too. The breaking point is purely on paper, in the heads of the planners. The big companies lack entrepreneurship, that fervent urge to make something. The Ferrania people have it, they don’t even really care about scaleability. They cut up base jumbos and coat. Slitters are there, perforators.
 

Rudeofus

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So, in my view, economies of scale are totally on Ferrania's side!
With their huge and poorly downscalable coating infrastructure, Fuji's and Kodak's cost of making one master roll doesn't much depend on how long a sheet they coat. Therefore Fuji can afford to make as much Provia as they need to fill market demand, and sell extra material as AgfaPhoto CT Precisa at low cost (price difference in the US is much less, but still there). Ferrania will be able to compete (considering price/roll only) with Provia, but not with excess material sold off under different names.
 

Rudeofus

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And their coater can be changed, in day or two, to coat paper.
Kodak's issue with E6 materials was not whether coaters could be used for different photographic products, but that the result of a single product run didn't last long enough for all the coated material to sell. This, and Kodak's strong dislike for E6 vs. C41 (just read PhotoEngeneer's statements about E6 as example).
 

iulian

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With their huge and poorly downscalable coating infrastructure, Fuji's and Kodak's cost of making one master roll doesn't much depend on how long a sheet they coat. Therefore Fuji can afford to make as much Provia as they need to fill market demand, and sell extra material as AgfaPhoto CT Precisa at low cost (price difference in the US is much less, but still there). Ferrania will be able to compete (considering price/roll only) with Provia, but not with excess material sold off under different names.
It all depends on the supply chain, actually. Fuji makes film in Japan only. from there it's shipped to various national Fuji branches. From there it goes to wholesale dealers who buy large quantities. From them it goes to shops, either online or brick and mortar. From there it goes to the consumer. All those people want to make money on it so it becomes more and more expensive along the way.

I managed to stock up on 120 Acros at 4 EUR / piece when I bought a case of it with some friends of mine (100 rolls total) through some guy in Austria. I don't know if he had a markup on it or if he sold it at the price he got it just to help other film shooters, but that film is 5.8 EUR at macodirect and they're one the cheapest retailers in Europe.

I'd be surprised if that film left the factory in Japan at a price higher than say 2 EUR / roll. The rest up to 6.8-7-8 is VAT, customs and markups.

If Ferrania manages to shorten this chain (sell directly to retailers/public) they can keep a lot of that money and also make film cheaper for shooters. I'm not advocating killing the dealers in the process, but at least the country offices can be skipped safely.
 

Rudeofus

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I managed to stock up on 120 Acros at 4 EUR / piece when I bought a case of it with some friends of mine (100 rolls total) through some guy in Austria. I don't know if he had a markup on it or if he sold it at the price he got it just to help other film shooters, but that film is 5.8 EUR at macodirect and they're one the cheapest retailers in Europe.
I have heard a story from some photographic retailer in a small country neighboring a large country: some maker of photographic products has a local distribution office in the big, neighboring country, but not in the country that particular photographic retailer. The distribution office doesn't create much of value, but claims their hefty markup nonetheless. Retailers in small country can get stuff directly from maker of photographic product, whereas retailers from large country can't. Result: many retailers in large country get their product from retailer in small country rather than from distributor.
 

Nzoomed

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Unfortunatelly they don't make colour film anymore. They made CR200 and CN200 both aviphot material, but on their website one is marked as discontinued and the other as "phase out"...
Its really unclear what that even means.

It would be really nice if we could see them restart production again, as it was a really good film.

I have no idea on the scale of their coater, but they were only the third company that was making colour film.
Now we are down to two, but soon we will see Ferrania again :wink:
 

Photo Engineer

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Well, sometimes defects are rather large as a percentage of a given coating. You may get only 50% good film out of a given coating run of a given product. It depends on product and varies with coater and company.

And, you cannot change from film to paper and back easily. Paper creates a lot of junk that must be cleaned up from the coater and the air, walls, floor and etc. This is dust that can mess up any film coating on the same machine.

PE
 

Andrew O'Neill

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Well, sometimes defects are rather large as a percentage of a given coating. You may get only 50% good film out of a given coating run of a given product. It depends on product and varies with coater and company.

And, you cannot change from film to paper and back easily. Paper creates a lot of junk that must be cleaned up from the coater and the air, walls, floor and etc. This is dust that can mess up any film coating on the same machine.

PE

That cleanup must be a hell of a job, eh?
 

Chris Livsey

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And, you cannot change from film to paper and back easily. Paper creates a lot of junk that must be cleaned up from the coater and the air, walls, floor and etc. This is dust that can mess up any film coating on the same machine.
PE

Not easy but dooable, on my Ilford factory visit the coater was down for the change and they said two maybe three days to change over. That may not have included testing though :wink:
 

Chris Livsey

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Diapositivo

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http://www.thephoblographer.com/2017/02/08/adox-announces-construction-new-factory/
http://www.adox.de/Photo/new-factory-building-in-bad-saarow-near-berlin/

Adox building a new coater.

Apologies if posted elsewhere on the site but seems relevant here as the world's film coater count seems to be reversing the decline.
Looks like the garage coater will not be needed.

More Super8 as well, who would have thought.

Wonderful news. It appears the bottom is behind us, and the rebound is beginning.
 

Nzoomed

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I think we probably have Super 8 to thank for the return of Ektachrome as well.

+1
This

Do you think its possible that Adox may introduce colour films?

I know they produced Color Implosion, but I think this was made for them by Inoviscoat
 

Prest_400

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This

Do you think its possible that Adox may introduce colour films?

I know they produced Color Implosion, but I think this was made for them by Inoviscoat
If you dig around the ADOX forum there was some interesting insights by Mirko. Essentially, developing a new reversal film wasn't in the works. Possible but uneconomic. Infact they developed an Agfa APX400 replacement (with views of an APX100) but withdrew the effort because of pricing difficulties and the development of an Efke successor, CHSII 100. They have a nice B&W market and like Ilford Harman, colour is a bit out of the scope because of its well discussed (hi PE!) difficulties.
Hence, it really is a feat that the skeleton crew of the LRF could make Colour reversal in the current timeframe. There's the advantage of having a small facility with formulas made on and for it. Much appreciation!
 

Photo Engineer

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Not easy but dooable, on my Ilford factory visit the coater was down for the change and they said two maybe three days to change over. That may not have included testing though :wink:

One of the determining factors is whether the dryers and chill boxes are enclosed. Some are and some are not and they just vent to the room. Imagine a room filled with very fine confetti.

And yes, there must be testing!

PE
 

Nzoomed

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If you dig around the ADOX forum there was some interesting insights by Mirko. Essentially, developing a new reversal film wasn't in the works. Possible but uneconomic. Infact they developed an Agfa APX400 replacement (with views of an APX100) but withdrew the effort because of pricing difficulties and the development of an Efke successor, CHSII 100. They have a nice B&W market and like Ilford Harman, colour is a bit out of the scope because of its well discussed (hi PE!) difficulties.
Hence, it really is a feat that the skeleton crew of the LRF could make Colour reversal in the current timeframe. There's the advantage of having a small facility with formulas made on and for it. Much appreciation!

Perhaps Adox wont ever enter colour, but its possible they may have the ability if future demand increases enough to make it worthwhile.

Im interested to know the scale of the coating operations that Agfa had in belgium, they had been producing the Rollei Digibase CN200 and CR200 films.

They obviously have some reasonable sized coaters and the engineers and expertise etc.

If Agfa have finished films for good, their staff and machinery may very well be valuable to Ferrania (if they can speak Italian) lol
 
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