Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[flavio81]

Guess where I was when I read this?

"Releasing" a new "batch", right?!

 

[Berri]

I have a question for Dave, How "legal" is to actually use such an old piece of machinery like the slitter you show in the recently released clip? Does it have all the required safety certification? I'm not trying to be funny about it, but people raised this issue on an italian forum and I would like to ensure them that everything is fine!

 

[twelvetone12]

I'm curious: why would anyone care?
This kind of rhetoric "Ferrania uses old and maybe unsecure equipment! Oh noes! (and then: if I was doing it everything would be different I tell you!)" always feels like that the people that perpetuate it have the hidden hope that the others will eventually fail.
When I was still living in Italy and working in a small lab safety was taken quite seriously. For example I could use the soldering iron only after taking a safety class on it (!!). In an industrial setting like Ferrania work safety will be probably very stringent. Dave noted that there are parts of the LRF that are accessible only to some people of the team: that is for safety purposes. The machines most probably can be only touched by the one or two people that are certified for it - others probably cannot even enter the room!
I sincerely don't get why people would even pose these kind of problem - if it was really a treat to safety they could risk having the factory shut down by just having published the video.

 

[fdonadio]

"Releasing" a new "batch", right?!

 

[Berri]

I'm curious: why would anyone care?

I know, I'm curious too! Detractors of this project would point anything as an issue or a reason why not to "love" them. I'm trying to show them facts to shut 'em up!
For example, they went on and on about how Ferrania was eventually going to sell defective film, all of that because none of them seemed to understand english well enough to have it clear in their minds that this wasn't gonna happen. Or even that none of the Ferrania staff have the Industrial knowledge to build such an industrial plant (of course without klnowing any of them) and, as you say, if it was them oh they would do it the right way, but for now, they rather sit in front of their computers while someone else is acutaly making new emulsions.

 

[flavio81]

I have a question for Dave, How "legal" is to actually use such an old piece of machinery like the slitter you show in the recently released clip? Does it have all the required safety certification? I'm not trying to be funny about it, but people raised this issue on an italian forum and I would like to ensure them that everything is fine!

I would understand that the guys at Ferrania know what they are doing.

I agree with the previous post -- sometimes people complain too much. Of course if you restore a 1920s slitter and want to use it, you make sure you fit it with the appropiate security measures.

And i'd be pretty confident that a facility that has
- high pressure steam pipes
- hazardous chemicals
- materials that should not be touched or exposed to light
- fumes that have to be extracted out
- high voltage equipment
- equipment very sensitive to miscalibration or misuse

Will have all sort of safety protocols and precautions dating back from at least 1964.

 

[flavio81]

I know, I'm curious too! Detractors of this project would point anything as an issue or a reason why not to "love" them. I'm trying to show them facts to shut 'em up!
For example, they went on and on about how Ferrania was eventually going to sell defective film, all of that because none of them seemed to understand english well enough to have it clear in their minds that this wasn't gonna happen. Or even that none of the Ferrania staff have the Industrial knowledge to build such an industrial plant (of course without klnowing any of them) and, as you say, if it was them oh they would do it the right way, but for now, they rather sit in front of their computers while someone else is acutaly making new emulsions.

Well but to be fair this is also because the Ferrania website is fully in english.
I still think this was the right decision, but now we can see the side effects.

Let's hope things work out fine financially for Ferrania, so they can budget to hire Davide Biaselli, that is, the Italian equivalent of David Bias!

PS: I've been stalking your flickr.com profile; very nice work!

 

[Berri]

PS: I've been stalking your flickr.com profile; very nice work!

Thank you!

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I have a question for Dave, How "legal" is to actually use such an old piece of machinery like the slitter you show in the recently released clip? Does it have all the required safety certification? I'm not trying to be funny about it, but people raised this issue on an italian forum and I would like to ensure them that everything is fine!

As we described in a past post on our site, we are a fully certified and legal manufacturing entity. As part of the process of obtaining this certification, our team spent many weeks earlier this year documenting all procedures to submit to the government, and of course signing very detailed contracts relating to their roles, the manufacturing environment, etc., as required by law.

What is truly puzzling is why anyone would think we would put any member of our team in danger. If anyone even gets sick - or worse, injured - it directly affects our ability to make film. One person out for even one day means a 17% staff reduction!

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I know, I'm curious too! Detractors of this project would point anything as an issue or a reason why not to "love" them. I'm trying to show them facts to shut 'em up!
For example, they went on and on about how Ferrania was eventually going to sell defective film, all of that because none of them seemed to understand english well enough to have it clear in their minds that this wasn't gonna happen. Or even that none of the Ferrania staff have the Industrial knowledge to build such an industrial plant (of course without klnowing any of them) and, as you say, if it was them oh they would do it the right way, but for now, they rather sit in front of their computers while someone else is acutaly making new emulsions.

Over time, Nicola has asked me to duplicate certain pages on our site so he can translate them to Italian - in a small effort to appease those who are so vehemently against our English communications. He has also joined a few forums to set the record straight on a few things - which quite frankly is a terrible use of his time...

According to him, the loudest complaints are coming from former Ferrania employees who will not be re-hired by us (and/or their family members), or people in nearby communities who are angry that the Ligurian government spent money on the LRF. There are also a contingent who are just so pissed off that we don't have an Italian version of our site, they find nearly anything to complain about.

We very much appreciate if you are also helping to tame this angry mob, and if you need any answers to specific questions, I'm always happy to answer.

The trick, of course, is to separate the plain old trolls from those who simply don't understand our communications...

Obviously, as soon as possible, we're going to relaunch our site in many languages, but we have to switch to a new platform, and migrating everything from our humble Squarespace site is going to be daunting. This comes with costs, so we cannot do it until we are able to warrant these expenses.

 

[Nzoomed]

I'm curious: why would anyone care?
This kind of rhetoric "Ferrania uses old and maybe unsecure equipment! Oh noes! (and then: if I was doing it everything would be different I tell you!)" always feels like that the people that perpetuate it have the hidden hope that the others will eventually fail.
When I was still living in Italy and working in a small lab safety was taken quite seriously. For example I could use the soldering iron only after taking a safety class on it (!!). In an industrial setting like Ferrania work safety will be probably very stringent. Dave noted that there are parts of the LRF that are accessible only to some people of the team: that is for safety purposes. The machines most probably can be only touched by the one or two people that are certified for it - others probably cannot even enter the room!
I sincerely don't get why people would even pose these kind of problem - if it was really a treat to safety they could risk having the factory shut down by just having published the video.

Yeah I was reading about this earlier, seems Italy is a real nanny state when it comes to health and safety, worse than what I thought, and i thought we had it bad here in New Zealand!
Looks like its unlikely we will see factory tours!
I was looking forward to visiting the LRF in Italy at some point in the future...

 

[Berri]

As we described in a past post on our site, we are a fully certified and legal manufacturing entity. As part of the process of obtaining this certification, our team spent many weeks earlier this year documenting all procedures to submit to the government, and of course signing very detailed contracts relating to their roles, the manufacturing environment, etc., as required by law.

What is truly puzzling is why anyone would think we would put any member of our team in danger. If anyone even gets sick - or worse, injured - it directly affects our ability to make film. One person out for even one day means a 17% staff reduction!

thank you very much for clarifying it, I much appreciate it! As more doubts rise, I'll report them to your attention in order to make mopre people understand the huge effort you're all doing at keeping film alive. If you need any help translating to italian I'm available for consulting!
Cheers!

 

[alanrockwood]

I don't know if this has been covered yet. Has there been a projection about pricing of the Ferrania films?

 

[keenmaster486]

Italy is a real nanny state when it comes to health and safety, worse than what I thought, and i thought we had it bad here in New Zealand!

You have it better than most countries in New Zealand, even the United States.

 

[Ces1um]

I don't know if this has been covered yet. Has there been a projection about pricing of the Ferrania films?

They said in their interview with Ted Forbes that it won't be the cheapest film on the market but it won't be the most expensive either. Roughly in line with normal market prices. Seemed like they were going to have a reasonable approach to their pricing. I'd imagine add a few bucks on top of whatever your average black and white film costs.

 

[Berri]

the cheapest color reversal film I know of is the CT Precisa, about 6/7 euros for 1 135 size film. The most expansive is the Velvia 50, selling at 13/15€ for 1 135 size film. So it should cost something in between. Like 10€ for 1 roll

 

[flavio81]

the cheapest color reversal film I know of is the CT Precisa, about 6/7 euros for 1 135 size film. The most expansive is the Velvia 50, selling at 13/15€ for 1 135 size film. So it should cost something in between. Like 10€ for 1 roll

CT Precisa is currently (very good) fuji film, Ferraniachrome 100 will have to be better or cheaper than it to be competitive.

Velvia 50 is expansive, i agree. It expands your horizons of color saturation and depth... (sorry, i couldn't resist!!)

 

[Berri]

There is also the digibase cr200 which I believe is an old emulsion. I tried it years ago but wasn't impressed; grainy and yellow. Yes, ferraniachrome has to be pretty good to compete with CT precisa. Also new ektachrome is coming and if I remember well it was about 10€ when it was discontinued

 

[flavio81]

Yes, ferraniachrome has to be pretty good to compete with CT precisa.

Or lower priced. If it is priced lower than CT Precisa it would be a big hit!

Or... if price can't be lowered the alternative is to offer something that isn't on the market:
400 - speed,
any tungsten speed
1000 - speed,
etc.

 

[Nzoomed]

There is also the digibase cr200 which I believe is an old emulsion. I tried it years ago but wasn't impressed; grainy and yellow. Yes, ferraniachrome has to be pretty good to compete with CT precisa. Also new ektachrome is coming and if I remember well it was about 10€ when it was discontinued

Ive never had the yellow problems with it, but my stock was from Wittner-Cinetec.
The rollei stuff had a bad batch that went yellow, its believed this was due to bad storage.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Ive never had the yellow problems with it, but my stock was from Wittner-Cinetec.
The rollei stuff had a bad batch that went yellow, its believed this was due to bad storage.

It's not due to bad storage. It is a characteristic of that remnant aerial film (Rollei CR200 [:Aviphot] ). I have exposed separate rolls from different batches and all the results show a murky and unpalattable cast and at the very least, a palette that is far removed from straight E6 processing, yet consistent with the observed characteristics of the film, as published. The examples you may see on the web have very often been modified (post) to overcome the cast. These are not reliable indicators of outcomes, nor is one or two rolls.

 

[Rudeofus]

Or lower priced. If it is priced lower than CT Precisa it would be a big hit

Economy of scale is so far on Fuji's side here, that Ferrania (or any other small film maker) won't stand a chance in terms of pricing.

Or... if price can't be lowered the alternative is to offer something that isn't on the market:
400 - speed,
any tungsten speed
1000 - speed,
etc.

Or maybe just another color palette? There's plenty of room here after both E100G and Astia left the market, and nobody knows yet what the new E100 will be.

BTW: if one just starts film production from scratch, and market takeup are not yet certain, a lower ISO product has much better storage capabilities. Therefore I'd be very surprised if Ferrania came out with a high ISO emulsion any time soon.

 

[Berri]

Economy of scale is so far on Fuji's side here, that Ferrania (or any other small film maker) won't stand a chance in terms of pricing.

Or maybe just another color palette? There's plenty of room here after both E100G and Astia left the market, and nobody knows yet what the new E100 will be.

BTW: if one just starts film production from scratch, and market takeup are not yet certain, a lower ISO product has much better storage capabilities. Therefore I'd be very surprised if Ferrania came out with a high ISO emulsion any time soon.

Yes I agree, I'd be happy with something similar to Astia in terms of colour rendition. An high speed reversal would be much appreciated as well though. The most important thing though is the dyes stability over time.

 

[Berri]

Or maybe something "new" like an autochrome! In the live broadcast of the other day Dave said that Nicola was trying to explain "starch" referring to it as potato, well old autochrome did actually used potato starch to produce the micro filters! But that is just a fantasy...

 

[Rudeofus]

Autochromes are a lot darker than slides using subtractive colors, so I am not really sure we want those except for curiosity value.