Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[MattKing]

OK, so the whole silver thing with Efke was purley marketing?

I know a few people were saddened when Efke closed, and all i would hear from them was about it being the last plant that made "high" silver content film lol

The "silver rich" part was marketing.
The old emulsions, spectral sensitivity, contrast, grain, reciprocity behavior etc. was what it was. Some people liked it, and amongst those people it was popular.
IIRC, in some parts of the world it was also inexpensive. People liked that.
Their IR sensitive material was also relatively unique in the market at the end. People liked that.
But mostly, I think people were unhappy that something they appreciated was going away forever. I understand that - I still have a little bit of Plus-X that I will miss when I've shot and developed it all.

 

[twelvetone12]

shhhhht don't say Ferrania made a Kodachrome-compatible film!!!!
@(there was a url link here which no longer exists) you can still find efke film on ebay if you're curious. I have some and use it as a "curiosity" film, it is like using fresh film directly from the 50's. It was actually the same formulas and the same machines! But I completely agree with PE on the criticism.

 

[twelvetone12]

Thats cool that you still have some old stock P30!
Do you know when it was last made produced?

I think it is late 60ies. It is 16mm, my uncle used it in a Minolta cam which he gave to my mom along with the bulk roll of film in the '70s... Which I in turn found in a box some years ago. You still get images in the film! But don't really expect anything comparable to the new version

 

[Film-Niko]

High silver was touted because of its so-called high image quality compared to some modern films. It is nothing more than a marketing issue for some that cannot do the correct sensitization.
PE

Exactly!
[With one small exception: For reversal processing it is indeed often a bit easier / better results with films with a bit higher silver content (like Adox Silvermax / Adox Scala 160 BW, Agfa Scala 200X, Fomapan R).]

Saying that a film with higher silver content is generally "better" is about the same as saying that a car with a higher fuel consumption is generally "better".

 

[Nzoomed]

The "silver rich" part was marketing.
The old emulsions, spectral sensitivity, contrast, grain, reciprocity behavior etc. was what it was. Some people liked it, and amongst those people it was popular.
IIRC, in some parts of the world it was also inexpensive. People liked that.
Their IR sensitive material was also relatively unique in the market at the end. People liked that.
But mostly, I think people were unhappy that something they appreciated was going away forever. I understand that - I still have a little bit of Plus-X that I will miss when I've shot and developed it all.

OK, interesting to know. Makes complete sense.

@(there was a url link here which no longer exists) you can still find efke film on ebay if you're curious. I have some and use it as a "curiosity" film, it is like using fresh film directly from the 50's. It was actually the same formulas and the same machines! But I completely agree with PE on the criticism.

Yes there seems to be tons of stock on Ebay at a reasonable price.

I might grab a brick to play around with.

 

[flavio81]

Exactly!
[With one small exception: For reversal processing it is indeed often a bit easier / better results with films with a bit higher silver content (like Adox Silvermax / Adox Scala 160 BW, Agfa Scala 200X, Fomapan R).]

Once i get hold of potassium permanganate or the dreaded potassium dichromate, i'll try reversal processing. It is something i've always wanted to try. I also have found some formulas for using acetic acid (or citric acid) + hydrogen peroxide as an alternate bleach, but i have not dared to try it yet, despite having the ingredients. And it is difficult to get the hydrogen peroxide in the required concentration in my country!

Meanwhile, guys...

Don't forget to buy E6 reversal film, even if only Fuji makes it. Buy it, shoot it, and handle it to your lab promptly!

We need to buy and use the stuff if we want E6 processing to continue in the next year!

 

[Photo Engineer]

I've already commented here and elsewhere that high silver is a benefit in some types of B&W reversal.

PE

 

[Nzoomed]

I've already commented here and elsewhere that high silver is a benefit in some types of B&W reversal.

PE

I also suspect thats why people like shooting negative films that are high in silver, as they give better results if they want them processed as reversal.

 

[cmacd123]

3M invested in Ferrania because (i guess) their plan was to compete against Kodak (3M was already a big company by then and was leader in magnetic tape production as well as other types of tape. 3M is an amazing company!)

3M was also very big in industrial and Microfilm, they had "funny" things like a machine that looked and worked like a photocopier, but spit out a strip of processed 16mm Microfllm ready to put in a fiche Jacket. they also had thermal silver Microfilm printers, (thin silver paper that could be handled a Bit in office light, and which when exposed to a blow back form microfilm were "developed" by passing them past a heater roller. They probably were interested in a low cost factory with the capability to make such stuff for them, and foreign exchange made Italy a cheep place to manufacture things in those days.

I have quite a few 16mm B&W movie prints that were made in Ferrania Stock, and a few labelled 3M, but 3M moved away from the movie stocks and B&W in general. I wonder if part of the important stuff for them was the colour paper, as they had a major number of film labs in various places, and of course would perfer to use 3M paper in the 3M labs.

Later 3M split off the imaging division to IMATION and i guess that the corresponding Imation Chrome was aimed more as an amateur, low cost, good E6 film. Which is what I would love to have now.
So the guys at FILM Ferrania must own right now a lot of intellectual property - lots of formulas, etc.
.

IMATION was an exit plan for 3M to get out of the Diskette business, they bundled all their recording media businesses into IMATION and spun it off, and as expected it fizzled out as demand went down. I think the 640T and other stocks were marketed while it was still sold as "Scotch Brand" when sold as a 3M product. Microfilm and the like were already fizeling out at the time IMATION came into being.

 

[MattKing]

The various Scotch films were sold as house brand films by Sears Canada as well.

 

[Diapositivo]

If you go really broke you can boil off the emulsion and reclaim the silver. A few rolls will get you enough to buy a few potatoes.

You can reclaim the silver by recovering it from the chemicals, after processing. It appears it is not insane at all. Some firms specialize in collecting your recoveries.

The original question is interesting, though.

 

[Diapositivo]

Whatever it is, the italians are people with great aesthetic taste that shows in their food, movies, clothing, architecture, cars, and a long standing passion for sophisticated engineering (Ferrari, Ducati, etc), so i would expect that these qualities are also going to permeate through the film products.

In thanking you in behalf of all Italians for the kind words, may I suggest you include music in the list? (Opera lover here)

 

[cuthbert]

I asked more info on this film and expressed interested in buying five of them but alas no answer.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I'm interested to hear from those who have shot Efke themselves, but perhaps the side effects from the high silver content was what people liked about that film? I believe it was very high contrast due to the silver content.

I'd argue that it was more due to the spectral sensitivity & some of the eccentricities of such an ancient set of emulsions coated using massively obsolete technology (even by the standards of the 1950s, dip-coating was pretty primitive). Contrast was pretty normal if you understood them to be a slow/medium/fast set of films designed to a somewhat different set of aims than today, without the use of controlled crystal growth & more sophisticated sensitisation techniques, let alone multi-layer coating.

That was if you could put up with the coating fluctuations (as PE pointed out further up thread) & the pepper grain that plagued the films latterly.

 

[Mackinaw]

I asked more info on this film and expressed interested in buying five of them but alas no answer.

Did you contribute to the original E-6 Kickstarter? If so, you should get a notice once their store is up and running. Mid-February is what they’re hoping for.

Jim B.

 

[ME Super]

I've been away for a few days and what happens? FILM Ferrania introduces their first film, a lovely looking B&W film. I'm hoping it's available in 120 at introduction, as I have a hard time shooting B&W and don't like committing to 36 frames (or even 24!) of B&W. If it's in 120, I only commit to 12 frames.

Go Ferrania!

 

[Peter Schrager]

I've been away for a few days and what happens? FILM Ferrania introduces their first film, a lovely looking B&W film. I'm hoping it's available in 120 at introduction, as I have a hard time shooting B&W and don't like committing to 36 frames (or even 24!) of B&W. If it's in 120, I only commit to 12 frames.

Go Ferrania!

Sorry it clearly stated 35mm to begin

 

[ME Super]

Rats. Well 35mm is better than not at all for sure.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Look guys, 35 mm is coated on 5 mil support, 120 on 4 mil support and sheet films on 7 mil support (all figures approximate).

Give the guys at Ferrania a break. They cannot be everything to everyone.

You are talking like the Lieutenant that was so excited about his first cavalry battle that he jumped on his horse and rode off in all directions at once.

One thing at a time!

PE

 

[Nzoomed]

Look guys, 35 mm is coated on 5 mil support, 120 on 4 mil support and sheet films on 7 mil support (all figures approximate).

Give the guys at Ferrania a break. They cannot be everything to everyone.

You are talking like the Lieutenant that was so excited about his first cavalry battle that he jumped on his horse and rode off in all directions at once.

One thing at a time!

PE

+1!
And besides, whats wrong with 35mm?

B&W film usually has very high resolution as it is!

 

[ME Super]

You are talking like the Lieutenant that was so excited about his first cavalry battle that he jumped on his horse and rode off in all directions at once.

One thing at a time!

PE

Agree with you on the one thing at a time thing, PE. But the image you paint with your words of a Lieutenant in the cavalry riding off on all directions at once has me in stitches!

FWIW, I do have a second 35mm body on the way, so I could use it for the P30 and still use my current 35mm camera for my first love, E-6, and my TLR for color negative. This could definitely work!

 

[Roger Cole]

OK, so the whole silver thing with Efke was purley marketing?

I know a few people were saddened when Efke closed, and all i would hear from them was about it being the last plant that made "high" silver content film lol

I never heard that. I did hear from a lot of people that were bothered by the loss of the last 25 speed film, and some (including me) at the loss of IR820 as the last real infrared rather than far-red/near-IR film.

 

[Roger Cole]

Look guys, 35 mm is coated on 5 mil support, 120 on 4 mil support and sheet films on 7 mil support (all figures approximate).

Give the guys at Ferrania a break. They cannot be everything to everyone.

You are talking like the Lieutenant that was so excited about his first cavalry battle that he jumped on his horse and rode off in all directions at once.

One thing at a time!

PE

I get it. But other than some Delta 3200 when I need faster lenses than my medium format camears I've all but stopped shooting 35mm black and white at all and even then, with D3200 being available in 120, that will drop off if I ever buy that 80 1.9 for my Mamiya. (In fact, other than those fast lenses in low light and slides for projection I've mostly stopped shooting 35mm at all.)

Super glad they are doing it and apparently doing it so well. But we can want 120 and sheets, even if we aren't riding off in both directions after 'em.

 

[Roger Cole]

+1!
And besides, whats wrong with 35mm?

B&W film usually has very high resolution as it is!

Nothing is really wrong with it, it's just that 120 is far better, or "more right" if you will, for my own interests. Large format too but I admit with modern films I'd be unlikely to see much difference between a print up to 16x20 from a 4x5 negative versus a 6x7 from my RZ67. But I'd DEFINITELY see a big difference from 35mm. But I don't walk down the street with a Leica quietly taking candids either. If I did I'd have a quite different opinion. All in what suits your needs and preferences.

 

[Chris Livsey]

pAg or vAg (two similar measurements like pH) were found to be the controlling factors. A chart of grain shape vs pAg by Herb Wilgus is in my book. Basically, a new method of controlling fog growth with organic chemicals are used to control the latest chemical sensitization methods. One is Tetra Aza Indene and the other is Phenyl Mercapto Tetrazole. I describe TAI and PMT in my book as well. They are used to either increase sensitivity or retard fog.
PE

Greatly appreciated, I had forgotten about the grain shape chart, I do recall mention of it previously from yourself in relation to RIT and Bruce Kahn.
This is still on APUG if you dig deep:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)