Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[Rudeofus]

Why would Ferrania have to provide film development service? There got to be at least one such lab left in Italy (and most other developed countries), and Ferrania could conveniently point inquiries to these labs. Rise in film use or not, most E6 labs currently operate in or close to hibernation mode, and the absolute last thing such a lab needs is a film maker announcing "reference film development service" in their facilities.

 

[Diapositivo]

Why would Ferrania have to provide film development service? There got to be at least one such lab left in Italy (and most other developed countries), and Ferrania could conveniently point inquiries to these labs. Rise in film use or not, most E6 labs currently operate in or close to hibernation mode, and the absolute last thing such a lab needs is a film maker announcing "reference film development service" in their facilities.

There are several left, but of none one can be certain that they will continue operating in the future. In order to make an "investment" (start a serious multi-jear project, for instance) one needs certainties. What I meant is the important effect of "anchoring of expectations", as a central bank manager would say. The present state of affairs gives you several laboratories in Italy, and no certainties.

 

[Prest_400]

There are several left, but of none one can be certain that they will continue operating in the future. In order to make an "investment" (start a serious multi-jear project, for instance) one needs certainties. What I meant is the important effect of "anchoring of expectations", as a central bank manager would say. The present state of affairs gives you several laboratories in Italy, and no certainties.

In some case, in the relation with a lab they could establish a take over in case of them going out of business. A few new labs were established after one shut down, taking over (some) machinery and starting another operation. I think that given the excess capacity of E6 labs, they can just refer customers to them or in case of prepaid processing; having them run it. Just like Dwaynes-Kodak used to.

And well, nothing is certain!

 

[Diapositivo]

In some case, in the relation with a lab they could establish a take over in case of them going out of business. A few new labs were established after one shut down, taking over (some) machinery and starting another operation. I think that given the excess capacity of E6 labs, they can just refer customers to them or in case of prepaid processing; having them run it. Just like Dwaynes-Kodak used to.

And well, nothing is certain!

Yes, Ferrania could also establish a network of existing reputable developers with some kind of endorsement, a Ferrania-approved seal, that would guarantee not just quality but also long-term commitment. Anything that can restore confidence in the future of film developability.

I see more problems in countries (such as Germany according to reports in this thread) where existing laboratories are rarer than in Italy.

 

[Rudeofus]

There are several left, but of none one can be certain that they will continue operating in the future.

If demand for slide film is as strong and growing as the reentry of two market players suggest, then there's a good chance that most processing labs will hang in there. If one of the new market players tries to grab a fair share of the processing market, though, then all bets are off. If I was Ferrania, I would not even dare think loudly about offering E6 processing to the general public, at least not before the very last processing lab in the country publicly announced its closure.

 

[Nzoomed]

Why would Ferrania have to provide film development service? There got to be at least one such lab left in Italy (and most other developed countries), and Ferrania could conveniently point inquiries to these labs. Rise in film use or not, most E6 labs currently operate in or close to hibernation mode, and the absolute last thing such a lab needs is a film maker announcing "reference film development service" in their facilities.

The point I made was rather to do with cine film processing, which is very hard to come by.

Regular 35mm processing isn't nearly as hard to access.

 

[Roger Cole]

E6 is not in a healthy state at this time. If it is to survive into the medium-term, a huge lot of E6 film across all manufacturers that we currently have must be consumed. The fact that throughput is so small through commercial processors is worrying enough because the process is filthy and wears out machines; the more films going through them, the better their operation over the longer term. Once the machines are clapped out through lack of use, they are very rarely (if at all) replaced anew. It's cheaper and most cost effective in terms of business to simply dump E6 processing. I have seen this with many labs with their machines too far gone to be salvaged.

Processing one or two rolls now and then doesn't cut it. Twenty to thirty rolls in a fortnightly period, continuing, is a good improvement, but thousands of photographers should be doing just that. They are not. It's all talk, little action. All of that E6 consumption should be done now, not at such a time in the future intedeterminate another film should make an appearance (Ektachrome, Ferrania) and somehow, the world is saved!. Ektachrome would require expansion beyond the 35mm format to MF and LF where the take-up would be more appealing. How well Ferrania fares in a global market that so many (outside the wizened confines of APUG) would be challenged to recognise the name (if at all) remains to be seen.

There's a sort of chicken and egg thing going on with E6 now I think. I would personally shoot more of it if there were more selection of films, particularly something a bit warmer and lower contrast than Provia 100F and something faster. As it is I shoot a bit of that, or its rebranded Agfa Precisa version bought before the prices moved to being virtually the same, and jealously hoard my frozen E100G and Provia 400X for when I think they are really needed, knowing that I can't get any more. I might ease up on the E100G with the news from Kodak but then again that might be premature since we don't know what the new film will look like. It may be, probably will be, more like Elitechrome 100 than E100G - a bit warmer than Provia maybe but not much different in contrast. If I could have two gone E6 films back they would be Astia and Provia 400X. Then price them at, say, 2/3s of the current prices for Provia (1/2 would be nice but I'm trying to be somewhat realistic) and I'd shoot a LOT more E6.

As it is film choices are both very limited and expensive, and the available Fuji films, while perhaps "accurate" are not the easiest for the casual shooter to get good results out of. Processing I don't see as a big problem but then I've always been fine with sending my film out by mail, or getting some E6 chems and firing up the Jobo if my volume increased enough. (And I'm not hung up on the number of baths. I always got good results from the three bath stuff and I'm fine with using it and making up my own stabilizer per instructions PE has long posted here.)

E6 didn't sink to this state overnight and it won't come back over night. But a new film from Kodak and a new (hopefully more affordable) film from Ferrania could go a long way to helping revive it.

 

[Roger Cole]

You raise a very good point! Yesterday on Instagram, a friend of mine posted that he was shocked how many people were posting photos of their own personal "stash" of Ektachrome in the wake of Kodak's announcement. He was shocked because people seemed to be proud to show film that they haven't actually used while at the same time claiming to be excited about Kodak's announcement...

This hoarding/stashing/freezing issue is of course a big big problem for all film companies in general - one that has been gaining some attention lately in the online film community. I've actually seen the hashtag #shootyourshit being used in online posts - and I could not agree more.

We're not quite sure at this point how we can truly tackle this problem, but it's most certainly on our minds...

I freely shoot the stuff that I can easily replace, albeit with some eye toward cost. What I am very careful about shooting is my frozen stock of E100G and Provia 400X because as it stands right now once I expose it, I'm done. I can't get more (aside from paying scalper's prices for someone else's frozen stash.)

Make a 100 film that's a bit warmer and perhaps lower contrast than Provia, closer to E100G, and I'll blaze through my frozen E100G this spring and summer and replace it with Film Ferrania E6. Same with Provia 400X and a 400 speed E6 film.

 

[cmacd123]

The point I made was rather to do with cine film processing, which is very hard to come by.
Regular 35mm processing isn't nearly as hard to access.

http://niagaracustomlab.com/?page_id=13

 

[flavio81]

Why would Ferrania have to provide film development service?

What Ferrania should do is to team with a chemical manufacturer, and produce E6 development kits with the necessary measures taken to be able to ship them from Italy to the rest of the world (in today's world where many online stores have problems shipping chemicals).

In fact it could bundle a nice brick of 20 rolls of Ferraniachrome 100 + an E6 development kit + a kit to prepare authentic Negroni using Ezio's recipe. Your choice: 135 or 120 format. Of course, appropiate international labelling should be ensured, so nobody pours the E6 chemicals into the Negroni.

I've read some magazine of the 1950s where the original Ferraniacolor had the advantage that it could be processed by the user purchasing one of the chemical kits Ferrania provides... This was also the advantage that the original Agfachrome had over Kodachrome.

 

[flavio81]

I notice new people was added to "The Team" on Ferrania's webpage:

Ivano del Prato - Covered in an earlier, exciting video on Ferrania's page, preparing the "purple stuff" (a sensitizer). I guess this is the most difficult part of all the chemical processes required for making a film.

Luisa Tavella - "Our Product Specialist and researcher for photographic emulsion making at industrial scale. Luisa holds a number of patents and has knows the film manufacturing process from end to end."

Indeed, i've done a Google Patents Search and Luisa does hold patents on photographical emulsions for Ferrania SpA.

I've also seen that Ferrania holds many many patents, some of them going back to 1958 (and then cited by other companies like Kodak, Polaroid, etc.; and viceversa of course)

I also see some of these patents related to photo film are as recent as 2005, which for me is a good thing, that means they kept doing R&D all the way while films were still generally used (more or less in 2007-2008 you could argue digital really took over in a general way)

Giuseppe Valle - "A high-precision mechanical technician, every day Beppe takes care that all our custom factory equipment is in perfect working order."

It's good to know they have a resident/permanent person for this, since they have a lot of machines to go through a CLACT (clean, lube, adjust, calibrate, test)
I guess Giuseppe is busy full time right now!

Dave, i wonder if anyone from The Team would like to participate here in this thread...

 

[Oxleyroad]

It was always my intention to process my own 16mm film in my lomo tank. I'd not given any thought as to how others would get their fine film processed.

 

[twelvetone12]

The idea of a combo brick of film + dev kit sized for that quantity of film is quite nice, I would surely buy it!

 

[flavio81]

The idea of a combo brick of film + dev kit sized for that quantity of film is quite nice, I would surely buy it!

You read it here first!

FILM Ferrrania, you can send me a kit as thanks for the idea, send free kit to:

FLAVIO81 TECHNOLOGIES (a subsidiary of INITECH)
#K14 Yellow Brick Road
Elbonia
Postal code C41

 

[lo Spocchioso]

What Ferrania should do is to team with a chemical manufacturer, and produce E6 development kits with the necessary measures taken to be able to ship them from Italy to the rest of the world (in today's world where many online stores have problems shipping chemicals).

http://www.bellinifoto.it/en/index.php

 

[twelvetone12]

I wrote to Bellini a couple times and never got a reply back (yes I wrote in Italian), and I could never find their chems on sale anywhere.

 

[lo Spocchioso]

I wrote to Bellini a couple times and never got a reply back (yes I wrote in Italian)

That's strange, they usually are very responsive. Try emailing gianfranco.pompei AT bellinifoto.it

and I could never find their chems on sale anywhere.

Anywhere in Italy you mean? I usually buy them from either http://www.ars-imago.com or http://www.fotomatica.it/

 

[twelvetone12]

Oh wow nice! I did not know fotomatica, and I only checked out the swiss version of ars-imago

 

[Rudeofus]

What Ferrania should do is to team with a chemical manufacturer, and produce E6 development kits with the necessary measures taken to be able to ship them from Italy to the rest of the world (in today's world where many online stores have problems shipping chemicals).

In fact it could bundle a nice brick of 20 rolls of Ferraniachrome 100 + an E6 development kit + a kit to prepare authentic Negroni using Ezio's recipe. Your choice: 135 or 120 format. Of course, appropiate international labelling should be ensured, so nobody pours the E6 chemicals into the Negroni.

The trend seems to go in the opposite direction - Kodak first outsourced their process chems to Champion, now to Tetenal. Since Tetenal sells E6 kits to end customers, any photo store could make such a combo arrangement. Making E6 process chems is not rocket science, but making a decent slide film is, and I sure hope that Ferrania focuses their fine staff on the hard task.

BTW: shipping film plus process chems as one unit makes the whole package hazmat, with all the extra cost and bureaucracy this brings with it. Unless you ship only very few packages at once, it would be much more economical to ship film rolls and process chems separately. The negroni recipe would be fine, though

 

[Nzoomed]

http://niagaracustomlab.com/?page_id=13

Doesnt help me much in New Zealand.
Its cheaper for me to send film to a lab in Holland than it is to send to the US or even Australia!

I had been using https://www.super8.nl/ and they worked out the cheapest for me even though they were further away, even with postage etc and they had good turnaround times also.

If Ferrania offered this service, I would use them first.

 

[Rudeofus]

If Ferrania offered this service, I would use them first.

And many other would do the same. Now think, how an independent lab would see the same situation:

• if Ferrania publicly announced an affordable service for super 8, any other lab would immediately stop any investments
• after all investments have ground to a stop, machinery would continue to break
• one lab after another would stop processing this film
• by the time Kodak & Ferrania appear with their product, the medium would be more or less extinct except for a few dedicated home processors, and both companies would face a steep uphill battle to get it running again.

Ferrania would be crazy to offer such a process, and crazy beyond redemption if they made any public statement even if they had plans to do so.

 

[flavio81]

Back to seriousness, the solution is that we use or keep using slide film NOW, keeping the existing labs busy.

For home processing Tetenal is a choice but we need competition to lower prices. I love tetenal products for b&w, by the way, so nothing against them.

 

[Nzoomed]

And many other would do the same. Now think, how an independent lab would see the same situation:

• if Ferrania publicly announced an affordable service for super 8, any other lab would immediately stop any investments
• after all investments have ground to a stop, machinery would continue to break
• one lab after another would stop processing this film
• by the time Kodak & Ferrania appear with their product, the medium would be more or less extinct except for a few dedicated home processors, and both companies would face a steep uphill battle to get it running again.

Ferrania would be crazy to offer such a process, and crazy beyond redemption if they made any public statement even if they had plans to do so.

Well we know Kodak have made it clear that they intend on offering this service, so whether or not Ferrania have plans to or not is irrelevant, If anything it could actually be a good thing if there is more than one big player for processing.

 

[Diapositivo]

And many other would do the same. Now think, how an independent lab would see the same situation:

• if Ferrania publicly announced an affordable service for super 8, any other lab would immediately stop any investments
• after all investments have ground to a stop, machinery would continue to break
• one lab after another would stop processing this film
• by the time Kodak & Ferrania appear with their product, the medium would be more or less extinct except for a few dedicated home processors, and both companies would face a steep uphill battle to get it running again.

Ferrania would be crazy to offer such a process, and crazy beyond redemption if they made any public statement even if they had plans to do so.

You seem to have a funny idea of free market.
It's the same kind of idea that make somebody think that the new Ektachrome is a menace for Ferrania.
It isn't. It's a blessing.

If Ferrania publicly announced an affordable service for Super8, IMHO any other lab would immediately plan new investments, because they would trust in the future of the technology!

Firms don't easily prosper in isolation. Slide film would end up like Betamax. They need a "cottage industry", a "culture" behind their products. A "culture" means, in this case, projectors, screens, scanners, cameras, laboratories, archival papers, etc.
A firm cannot provide the entire "culture", cannot nourish the entire industry.
What Ferrania or Kodak can do is to "anchor expectations" about the future of slide film.
By guaranteeing developing to people in places where developing at the moment is problematic they make certain that slide film remains alive, and so they give reasons for investments to all the cottage industry. That's IMHO.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

bit warmer and lower contrast than Provia 100F and something faster.

Slap on a warming filter and take her to E200 - EI400. No problems. At least one of Fujifilm's offerings has versatility and good behaviour built in!